Potential US Draft by Spring 2005?

The Core RPGC Main Forum
61

Thanks, Percy!

I have a friend who had a saying I liked:

“Politicians are people who are willing to give your lives for their country”. Or something along those lines.

A lot of politicians are analogous to the same armchair thinkers that thought up a lot of bogus theories about how they thought the world and “man” was like. They like to imagine a pretty picture of what something’ll turn out to be, they convince themselves of it then they get other people to do it for them. The reason a lot of people say “I’ll go when Jenna (Bush)” goes is because politicians are hypocrits for wanting to put other people’s children on the plank instead of their own to push their agendas. Therefore this doesn’t make the draft right since all it does is force people into situations into which they shouldn’t be forced against their will since these people’s lives are no one elses but their own. The draft merely defers more people to the military to defer the blame from the politician.

There’s nothing glorious about war, about dying, about torture, about suffering. Instead of putting money into the draft, people should put money into diplomacy.

62

I very much hope I don’t get drafted. That would very much piss me off.

63

The typical Lockeian reasoning for the Illegality (notice it’s capitalized, you’ll see why) of the Draft goes something like this.

Natural Law and Natural Rights are the foundation of Lockeian philisophy. Under these, people have the Right to Life, Liberty, and Property: The Three Basic Rights. Now, no one has Right to deprive you of your Three Basic Rights. Depriving you of Property is Theft. Depriving you of Life is Murder. Depriving you of Liberty is Slavery. These Rights are given to us not by the government, not by the people, but by something higher, whether that be God, some Deist entity, or blah (I have no idea what the something higher is under Atheist Lockeian beliefs).

Now, that said, it must be reiterated that no one has a Right to your Life, Liberty, or Property. You can voluntarily allow them to use or take your Property through sharing or exchange of money. You can voluntarily enter into the service of someone else such as a volunteer army. You can voluntarily choose not to exercise your Liberty (think people sometimes censoring themselves at work).

Now, we’ll go with the Right to Life and Liberty parts. As said, you can voluntarily choose to enlist. In ways, you are volunteering to give up your Liberty to enter into the service of another. In addition, no one has the right to tell you to forfeit your Life. No one has the right to require you to lay down your Life if you had not already volunteered it. The Draft takes away your Right to Liberty. It requires you to enter into the service of others unvoluntarily. You have now become a Slave of the Government. Drafted individuals are also forced to give up their Right to Life. They are forced to die and to kill for causes they may not actually believe in. The Government has now unlawfully Murdered you.

Now, you might say “Well, volunteers for the military don’t always believe in the causes they’re fighting for!” That’s true. However, they did volunteer. They did enter into a contract wherein they agreed to waive the exercise of some of these Rights. If we enter into a war they do not agree with, they can fight until they’re term of duty is up and may choose to no longer volunteer. They may also choose to desert their post, in which case they can and probably will face military punishment (I believe the standard now is a year in jail and dishonorable discharge. Info might know).

That said, I will never be drafted. If there was a war such as WWII that I truly felt deserved being fought in, one that I was personally touched by, I would volunteer. I’m not as morally opposed to Iraq as many of the people here, but I will refuse to fight in that desert if I were drafted. I will fight to end the draft. I will fight to overthrow the government that does respect my Natural Rights. I will exercise my Right, MY RIGHT MY DUTY, to create a government based on Rights, on Freedom, on Liberty.

As of now, I fear both parties. I do not trust the Republicans or the Democrats. They are both corrupted with power and filled with hatred towards Freedom. They both claim to support Freedom while the other party hates it. They feed us tidbits of “freedom” that is oh-so mercifully granted to us by our Lord and Master the Government. All the while they are stealing from us, enslaving us, and murdering us. I refuse to support those parties that believe government must be strong to do good. I will and, for the forseeable future, always will vote Freedom First. I’m proud to be a Libertarian.

64

Hooray for libertatians, defending their right to do nothing as the world crumbles around them.

Anyway, the war in Iraq is already over and pulling the troops out now isn’t an option (because then terrorist organizations would likely take over, as happened in afghanistan and other areas). Now because of lack of international support the united states troops are spread thin, so they have to start considering a draft in case it looks like things will get any worse anywhere.

To believe in libertarianism in the modern world, you must believe that looking the other way and hoping nothing bad happens is enough. Without a strong government, the services the government would normally supply would be taken over by organized crime or terrorist organizations or no one or corporations. And none of those possibilities is appealing.

65

First off, I am 24, and will be 25 IF and when this goes through, so that is a bit old. Secondly, I have some major health problems that would prevent me from going. However, I’d rather not lose my husband, who will be only 23 to the US Armed Forces if at all possible. I bet his flat feet won’t get him out of it.

As for the “compulsory” part, I have a friend who is an Israeli citizen and therefore served 21 “compulsory” months in the Israeli Air Force. It will be worse for some than it is for others from what I have gathered from her experiences.

66

Locke believed in God, 984. He was by no means atheist.

67

984 didn’t say he was.

68

Actually, his flat feet could get him out of it. It depends on how bad they are. If they aren’t too bad he’d be waived. However, if they are bad he won’t be accepted since he won’t be able to run.

69

I was merely asking where Atheist Lockeians believe Natural Rights come from, Ren. Religious Lockeians believe God or gods. Deists believe whoever created it all created Natural Rights. I guess lovey dovey Mother Earth people take Natural to mean Nature. Atheists? Dunno really.

And Vorpy, many of the services provided by the government are not specifically outlined in the Constitution. If we hold that government does not need to follow the rule of law, that it can exercise “powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution” as specified in the 10th Amendment, then why can it then not violate the 1st Amendment? 4th? 5th? 14th? If we state that the government does not need to follow the Constitution, then the Patriot Act is, well, Constitutional.

And what is so wrong about private businesses running some services? Private enterprise is generally much more efficient and cost effective than government.

70

There is really no desirable choice in terms of government, because no matter how you slice it, people will run the government. And people are stupid, greedy bastards. The two parties are corrupted, yes, but such corruption would STILL exist if there were three or four parties. In fact, the more parties you have, the more unstable the government. As long as Bush is out, I’m happy.

The Patriot Act will run out, anyway, and without the emotional source that CREATED the Patriot Act to begin with (9/11), I doubt it will be renewed. Such things pass because emotions run rampant after serious situations (such as putting the Japanese-Americans in internment camps after Pearl Harbor). After the situation is over, such laws eventually die out. Of course, there’s the fact that these should never have been passed to begin with, but emotion rules over logic.

71

I disagree. many politicians have instructed that they wish to renew it. Both democrats and republicans alike. Anyway back to the draft issue. I don’t think they’ll pass it. I believe it was merely a “stunt” if you will to test the water and see how people would react. Also any measures after this would make other measures seem less radical. I don’t know though. I don’t think riots would break out (but then again I don’t know) but anyone who voted for it would get lot’s of hate mail and maybe death threats.

72

I think some of you are confusing participation with a draft with advocacy of the war.

73

Cause the first and foremost goal of private businesses is accrue capital, as opposed to the first and foremost goal of government, which is to protect the basic securities and freedoms of ALL the governed. Our current government does not do this very well, it’s corrupt and senseless and needs to be changed. If you give corporations a lot of political power, you cannot, from a capitalist perspective, expect private businesses to go out of their way to sacrifice capital in order to protect citizens’ securities and freedoms, if that’s what it comes down to.

Also, the environmentalist in me is keen to point out that one of the foremost responsibilities of government needs to be to take initiative in preserving the natural beauty of the land on which the governed live, as a measure of respect for the land which sustains its citizens. Whenever private business has a huge measure of political clout (as is the case right now, in fact), it’s usually the environment which suffers, because businesses don’t exist to protect the environment; they exist to make money.

Also, it’s very, very dangerous to give corporations political clout (which will naturally happen if they are responsible for government services), because they could influence foreign policy, which, aside from creating really immoral practices abroad (think sweatshops, banana republics, etc.), could make it much easier to spark destructive wars in the interest of economic gain. Governments still do that, but the more money-making interest gets into politics, the more a government will be willing to do to make money.

…As for the draft,

I really hope it doesn’t pass. I mean, it doesn’t look like it will, at least not yet, since we haven’t committed ourselves to any other conquests and as far as I know, there aren’t any more being seriously planned right now (of course I don’t know shit though, lol :P). It’s like Vorpy said, the only reason Congress is considering it is in an “in case” measure; the troops are spread really thin, and if there’s suddenly a massive uprising somewhere, a draft might be necessary to quell it. And I doubt even the current administration would be stupid enough to angle for war with yet another nation, because it would find FAR fewer supporters even than the last time, internationally and at home.

74

If a draft ever does get passed, you can all come and hang at my house and go to the beach every day and party like maniacs every night. Well, at least Maz can and Perc should come over regardless but the rest of you are on a case by case basis :stuck_out_tongue:

75

The war in Iraq is over, but there is more to follow. The reason we’re staying in Iraq is because of Iran; they claim to have a nuclear weapons program. I’m betting Bush is waiting for them to explode a nuke (test bomb), then we’re gonna pull another stunt like Iraq.

Bleh, I hope to not get drafted. That would ruin my plans…but then, outside of my girlfriend, I don’t have much of a life. Whatever happens, happens, I guess.

76

Iran doesn’t have nukes, though it is suspicious as to whether or not they have it. They’ve never claimed to have a nuke.

77

If Bush is reelected and we continue the policy of preemption, there might very well be a draft in the next four years.

78

Actually, we aren’t worried about Iran right now. We are more worried abotu Syria. Syria is the one that may be a threat and ahev weapons. We’ve already fought with them along the IRaqi/Syrian border.

79

THIS IS FU)*&@#$ BU)( SH)#

ok plesentries out of the way, i graduate next year, hope to go to college

being a son of a military family
i would not support the draft but would if called, do my duty

that still doesnt mean that im gonna like it.

it is nice to see that they will update it to include modern issues ( women, college, medical) but there are still major problems.

KILL THE POLITICIANS

80

Here’s an interesting little notion:

>I hope that you will not be offended if I tell you HOW
>THE “DRAFT” works.
>I realize that most people THINK they know how it
>works, but in most cases
>they are in error!
>
>1. Mr. A receives a “draft notice” and is told to
>report on a certain
>date to a certain place where he receives his physical
>and mental
>tests…then he is classified with a number indicating
>whether he is A1
>(first called)…all the way down to 4F(unfit for
>duty).
>
>2. Mr.A is told that he is to report for “induction”
>into the military and
>to appear at a certain military base for that purpose
>on a date specified.
>
>3. By “LAW” he must appear there…or a warrant for
>his arrest will be issued.
>
>4. Assuming he reports as directed he will have
>another brief physical and
>tests and then is told to “line up on the yellow line
>(painted on the
>floor) with the others.”
>
>5. A Recruiting Officer will then tell all those
>"joining the army (or
>whatever)
>to take one step forward…(Oh, oh, THOSE WHO DID THIS
>JUST “VOLUNTEERED!”)
>This is done so that no one can “legally” claim they
>were “forced into
>involuntary servitude!”
>“RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND AND SWEAR ALLEGIANCE.” (almost
>everyone
>does!..thinking it must be REQUIRED!): “I, (name) do
>solemly swear that I
>will bear true faith and allegiance to the
>Constitution of the United
>States of America and will defend it against all
>enemies foreign and
>domestic, and will obey the orders of the President
>and the officers
>appointed over me, so help me God.”
>
>6. Those who “voluntarily” stepped forward CANNOT NOW
>CLAIM THEY WERE
>“DRAFTED”…they sepped forward voluntarily and took
>the Oath voluntarily!
>
>7. Assume Mr. B was smarter than Mr.A and HE DID NOT
>STEP FORWARD AND
>THEREFORE DID NOT TAKE THE OATH OF ALLEGIANCE. (the
>recruiter will probably
>say something like this: “what’s the matter with you,
>don’t you know what
>‘step forward’ means?” Mr. B responds, “sure I do, but
>I AM NOT
>VOLUNTEERING TO SERVE IN THE MILITARY…If you want me
>you must ‘take me’
>against my will by force!”
>
>8. All of those who “volunteered” will now be excused
>from the room…and
>the Mr.B will be cajoled with persuasive
>arguments…at first…then, when
>nothing works to change his mind he will be called
>names and insulted,
>possibly even assaulted by one or more military people
>present there as
>witnesses.
>
>9.IF Mr. B does not weaken, stands his ground,
>eventually the tormentors
>will give up and have him arrested on some charge.
>However, there is NO
>lawful way that they can MAKE him go into the
>military…because of the
>Constitutional prohibition against “invol- untary
>servitude”…which is why
>NO ONE IS TRULY EVER “DRAFTED” AND MUST BE "SEDUCED "
>INTO VOLUNTEERING!