Well, if Mr. B is ‘arrested on some charge’, without actually breaking a law, then it already is kinda unlawful, though its no longer a matter of being forced into service. Though that is very helpful to know. 
It’s very comforting to know that you will be insulted, threatened, assaulted, and arrested. Where’s liberty now?
Well, this would be another reason for me to say that Canada is better than the US…but I supposed I’m pretty biased in saying that, having been a Canadian my whole life.
Yeah, the whole draft thing seems a little outdated. I suppose there is a thing to there not being enough people to defend one’s country and all…but I really don’t think that the US is in any threat of being so overrun by a conventional army that it requires a lot of troops. There isn’t another great war on, at least not that I heard (but, with the way I follow news, there probably could have been for the last week and I wouldn’t have been any wiser about it). Being drafted seems like a throwback to the old pre standing army age, when a land’s armed forces were just the peasants and normal people who, when war threatended, picked up weapons and fought. But with the Romans first, and later the true standing armies, calling up civilians for reserve is somewhat outdated (unless, as has occassionally happened, the utter defence of a country is required and there are not enough trained soldiers; a very rare scenario, that would only happen either in a World War, or if a mega-power invaded a smaller country).
You know, it is unlikely that such a thing would be passed in the US. But if it would, judging by the responses I have read, the people would be against it at least 10 to 1. If it, even then, were to be passed, it would prove that the US has slipped from democracy into oligarchy.
You guys act like being put in the military is being put into hell. It’s a job, all jobs have their bad parts. You’re liberty isn’t being threatened. Hell, for being a super power, you should be happy we haven’t had it for 20 years.
Also Yar, that thing is messe dup. It doesn’t really maek sense. For one, the processing and medicla would take place at a place MEPS )Military Entrance Processing Station) even in a time of a draft. You go there, they have you start the paper work and screen you. After that, you get orders. Yes you have to sign the paper work, but if you dont’ you go to jail. There is mroe to it than just showing up to not getting arrested. It is called being UA, or AWOL for the Army. It is similar to when I was activated. Minus the screening, Is till had the paper work. I had processing I had to do and orders were given. Yes I could choose not to sign them and refuse to go on active duty, but I’d be breaking the law and would have the same sort of punishment.
Also, being drafted is less of an infringment on liberty than many other laws. hell, my liberty is infringed because I can’t go 100mph down a residential street if I don’t want to. You may say ti is for safety, but it still infringes on my liberty. Being drafted is to defend the country you lvie in to preserve the liberties that you do have. Think about it, if some coutnry decided to invade the continental US right now and we got no support from our allies,we’d be in trouble. Yes we have active and reserves here, but it would be pretty overwhelming. Are you gonna say that it is better to have the invaders victorious than to be forced to fight them off? What is to say what your liberties would be if they win? The difference between being drafted and other laws is that being drafted is temporary. You give up a year or two of your life for your country and then come home and continue on with yoru life. However, I can wait a year or two and I still won’t be able to go 100mph down a residential street if I so choose. Hell, being arrested also infringes on liberty, but nobody complains.
I’m against the draft, I just want to clear up that it doens’t infringe on your liberties anymore than any other constructs of the system.
Lastly, when you come home you’ll be banking. You make a shit load of money deploying. Reserves get paid mroe than active duty does normally. Similarly, if you aren’t in the military you’ll make even more money because doign it is even further removed. Also, the feeling of coming home and seeign your loved ones is one of the greatest feelings in the world.
EDIT: Also, the draft has been a part of America logner than it hasn’t been. It isn’t something that is politicians crunching down on liberties.
Well, that’s exactly the thing. Being drafted and deployed in Iraq doesn’t preserve your homeland’s liberties or rights.
Edit: and by the way, speed limits are municipal laws, not federal laws.
I wish this law gets passed on, because if it does, people will be so raging towards the policticians who made it that whomever has a proposal of turning the draft down will automatically get elected in 2008 and ultrapacifists will have a sure win in every election for the next dozen decades.
So, they still impede on liberties. I’m aware of the difference. Also, it was just a fucking example. Also, read my part about if America was invaded, regular forces are too thin right now. Besides, this isn’t aboutt he war, it is about the draft. Like Merl said, some of you are mixing the draft with Iraq advocacy. Also, what is to say you’d be ddeployed ot Iraq? You could be deployed to Afgahnistan. The draft has been aorund a while, it isn’t a new thign politicians are trying to create to haev mroe control. It is a privledge that we haven’t had it in 30 years. I’m talkign about the draft alone, not the wars. While, I don’t think that we should be in Iraq, it had some good things come out of it. Also, even though I don’t care for the war I’ll still go.
Also, like I said, you can go to a federal prison for various crimes and no one complains about the liberty infringement there.
EDIT: Drugs are a good example. Peopl want to do drugs, but the government won’t allow you to do them and will put you in jail. It is federal, that’s why we had a war on drugs. Hell, with pure liberty, we should be able to smoke crack and pot all day and not go to jail. However, the government will put us in jail for using our liberty to smoke those. Also, why can’t I drink until I’m 21 or smoke until I’m 18? I live in a country based on liberty.
I see the draft as a direct result of having to keep such a large garrison in Iraq, which is partly why I don’t agree with it.
The various crimes you speak of infringe on other people’s rights. Barelling down a roadway at 100mph jeopardizes other people’s lives. Just being an ordinary, healthy citizen isn’t a crime, though, no matter how “minor” the infringement upon your liberties imposed by a draft.
Edit: And Info, I don’t think anyone actually meant to imply that being in the military “was hell” or whatever.
Edit 2: Drugs. They threaten the U.S. economy, and ruin people’s lives, which is why they’re considered illegal. They’re harmful to society in general, and when something is harmful enough, people make laws prohibiting them. It’s sort the same reason that you’re not allowed to work under the minimum wage.
Smoking. For things like this, people like to set an “age of maturity” at which point they deem the person mature enough to make a decision about this kind of thing. Which is also why one isn’t allowed to drive until a certain age, and why your parents don’t allow you to see excessively violent or gory movies until a certain age.
Are you reading all I say? I addressed the dangers on speeding.
Also, being drafted is less of an infringment on liberty than many other laws. hell, my liberty is infringed because I can’t go 100mph down a residential street if I don’t want to. You may say ti is for safety, but it still infringes on my liberty.
However, the alw is there for safety; same with the draft. If regular forces aren’t enough, we need to use regualr forces. Also, the draft is older than speeding and drug laws. It isn’t new. Also, seperate the draft from Iraq. Put it in prespective of yoru favorite war. The one that you feel America had to fight in. There was no option but to fight. Does the draft impose on your liberties?
Yep.
This is where Lockeian principals come in. I think that the government should serve the individual, not the other way around. Given the situation, one would think that people would be motivated enough to sign up without a draft. However, that doesn’t seem to be the case, and a draft is sometimes certainly necessary. I don’t have to like it, but I have to see its necessity to the health of the nation as a whole. That excuses the draft, but does not justify it.
Fuckin’ browser. It keeps fucking up when I post. My point is that there is a social contract (said by Locke too maybe). The mroe that you give to the government, the more securty you have, but less liberty. The less that you give to the government, the less security, but greater liberty you have. I had mroe, but my fuckin’ browser. Also, jsut to get technical, by being drafted, you do work for the government and are serving the people, so it does follow the Lockeian stuff in that sense.
Yes, but who is to determine who is mature enough? I know some very mature teens and some very immature adults. There is no set age that you magically become mature enough. Also, that doesn’t change the fact that it infringes on liberties.
You say that drugs are outlawed because of the danger to the US. Conversly, not having enough people in the military is danegrous to the US. If we can’t keep up operational tempo, we’ll start to lose.
Actually, I’d say you are loosing already. There’s no peace; there is however daily violence and soldiers abusing prisoners. And the government in USA is pleading to the UN to have the American soldiers extempt of the court for warcrimes? If that were soldiers from any other country doing those horrible things, Bush would have hauled them to trial before they could say “What, we were FILMED?!”
I’d disagree. Daily violence? That is a part of war. By that definition, everyone lsoes every war the first day of it. The abuse is one aspect fo it, but nto key in winnning the war. We still aren’t losing lots of troops over there. We are still accomplishing missions. New missiosnare having to be cretaed because the outbreaks in violence, but we are still maintaining operational tempo. Also, adding draftees over there won’t fix anything, in fact it could make things worse. The draft has never been popular, but it is sometimes eneded. The chaning face of war has made the draft less valuable though. I aven’t ehard that the government is pleasing with the UN to keep the soldeirs from being out upf or war crimes. Besides, it wouldn’t do anygood to have it go up to the UN since some of the abuse came from high up. It also doesn’t like BUsh to plead with the UN. Bush is more of the kind of guy who’ll say “screw what the UN says.” The abuse has to be dealt with inernally so that it can be worked otu and prevented in the future. The 2 wars that you could say that we lost would be Korea and Vietnam, both of those were loses because we weren’t able to do anything, but still lost a lot of lives. We may not be doing as well as we hoped, however, the casualties are still pretty low and we are making some progress. The main difficulty is not having an actual enemy. Also, Iraq is something we can’t just leave. If we leave, things will get even worse.
by being drafted, you do work for the government and are serving the people, so it does follow the Lockeian stuff in that sense.
No… by being drafted against your will, if that is the case, the government is <i>forcing</i> you to serve. Your liberties are being oppressed against your will so that others can have more, but that’s not what Locke was all about.
Yes, but who is to determine who is mature enough? I know some very mature teens and some very immature adults. There is no set age that you magically become mature enough. Also, that doesn’t change the fact that it infringes on liberties.
Majority in the current society? It’s a democracy, remember, and you elect politicans to vote on this kind of stuff. You’re sort of implying that “keep out of hands of children under three” stickers are infringements on their liberties, and that’s just ridiculous. Getting all technical really isn’t helping your point.
You say that drugs are outlawed because of the danger to the US. Conversly, not having enough people in the military is danegrous to the US. If we can’t keep up operational tempo, we’ll start to lose.
But it still doesn’t threaten the U.S. as a whole. It threatens the military personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan, yes, but like I said, I see the consideration of a draft as a direct result of warring with Iraq.
The dratt isn’t new. You are taking for granted that we don’t have one now. Also, you sometimes have to do things that you don’t liek to get what you want. Haven’t you heard the saying that freedom isn’t free?
Actaully, it does, but I was mostly pointing out that it does ruin your arguement. You say that the government is there to serve the people, well if you are part of the military, you are a part of the government, and therefore serving the people by fighting for them. I’m saying that many thigns infringe on liberty, but you aren’t complaining about them.
Afgahnistan was needed because we ahd to show that we would act if attacked. We had world wide support for the operation. Iraq was the complete oppostie. You see, this is where we really start arguing two different things. I’m arguing that the draft isn’t good, but maybe needed to protect the coutnry. I’m seperating it from the wars. hell, I was watching a doucmentary on the History Channel yesterday and even in World War II they didn’t like the draft. Nobody likes being forced to go to war, but it is sometimes needed. Wioth what youa re saying, we shouldn’t have gone to WWII against Germany since they weren’t a threat to us. Sure they were horrible things, but if the volunteer force couldn’t do ti, we shouldn’t have been there.
Also, the draft is a part of being the social contract that you agreed to. By being a citizen of the country and living here and using the services and protection provided by the government, you agreed to it. If you didn’t agree to it, if you were robbed the polcie wouldn’t have to do anything about it. The draft is a bit like taxes. You are giving something of yours to the government for its services.
EDIT: Here the reason I want you to seperate the drfat from the current wars. You are arguing that it infringes liberty. That has nothing to do with the wars. That is about whether the government has the right to draft you. Liberty is the basis of your arguement, so what do the current wars matter? If it is the most righteous war ever, liberty infringement would remain the same. So why bring up Iraq. I’m shocked that you group Afgahnistan with Iraq since we were attacked which promted us to go there. No 9/11, no war in Afgahnistan. We even tried to resolve that diplomatically.
If you consider a human life to be as expendable as money, then the draft is exactly the same as taxes. I however, do not agree with that.
Actaully, it does, but I was mostly pointing out that it does ruin your arguement. You say that the government is there to serve the people, well if you are part of the military, you are a part of the government, and therefore serving the people by fighting for them. I’m saying that many thigns infringe on liberty, but you aren’t complaining about them.
I don’t see how it “ruins” anything. The military is a state-run affair. You are still serving the government. If a bunch of civilians, or if even over 50% of the country wanted you to do something in a war, you should still not obey them, and should only follow your commander’s orders. Forcefully putting your life at risk for the well-being of others is different from forcefully stopping you from driving at high speeds for the well-being of others, and I don’t see how grasping for connections between the two can help.
I don’t think you’re reading my posts. I never said the draft was anything new, and I clearly stated that the draft is sometimes a necessary thing for the well-being of the country, but I still don’t have to agree with it. I also never said that Afghanistan or WW2 or any other “righteous” wars justified a draft.
I’m not saying that. Besides, I didn’t say that they were exactly the same. I said that they ahd something in common, but were not the same. I said that they are similar in that you are giving to the government for something in return.
I don’t think you’re reading my posts. I never said the draft was anything new, and I clearly stated that the draft is sometimes a necessary thing for the well-being of the country, but I still don’t have to agree with it. I also never said that Afghanistan or WW2 or any other “righteous” wars justified a draft.
I am reaidng them and I’ve repleid ot each part. I’m telling you to seperate the draft from teh wars. We are debating different things. I don’t want a draft now, I’m jsut saying that ti doesn’t infringe on your Lockerian liberties. I haven’t said that Afgahnistan or Iraq justify a draft either. I’ve said that Afgahnistan is a needed war since America was attacked and you don’t get much mroe justification than that. I only used “righteous” to describe the one war or instance that you agree that there is no alternative. I’m saying that the drfat isn’t anything new since you act like it is absurd that the government would reinstitute it at any time.