i know the base we have in germany is an airforce. the rest i really dont know.
The Nature of war is such: A nation feels that its best course, is one of violence, and other nations either defend themselves, or take up the ‘righteous’ cause and help the ‘good’ guys.
There is no honor in the death of a nameless foe, and even less honor in reading the fallen’s dogtag to give him/her a name after the fact. There is no honor in death without the identity of the one who kills. There is no honor in a forced march. There is no honor in eating MREs. There is no honor in wearing combat fatigues and waiting nervously for the angel of final mercy to bring her parting gift. There is no honor for a soldier in war.
In the States, we have it very easy. We are not required to serve, and when we do, there is little actual war to endure. Many people are not so lucky, some are even so unfortunate to skip right over a draft, and simply inherit the closest machine gun that they can find as soon as they are strong enough to hold it.
Those men and women who serve out of a sense of duty, and not some sick fantasy of neo-cowboyism do have honor. They are willing to give up months and years of their lives to serve the nation, and should the time come, they are willing to risk their lives.
George W. is not a coward for avoiding Vietnam, and Kerry is not a fool for serving. George is a coward for using his politcal influence to avoid that which Clinton at least had the balls to admit he did. Every man should be willing to serve. No man should ever WANT to ask another to take the ultimate risk.
A fair draft would teach us all something very valuable about life and service. We do not owe our lives to our country, but we do owe our lifestyles. the States might not be right often, or even at all, but we must first support our nation. Only then will we have voice to speak against it. Anyone can try to run to Canada, but it takes a certain measure of courage to accept the call and come back with enough credibility to have a real voice. Who do you think most (we can’t count W in this category) leaders are more likely to listen to about war: A bunch of ‘nilly little cowards’ or the brave men who faught and know the battle is wrong?
There is no honor for a soldier in war. The honor is earned the second the soldier accepts that they are only a part of something bigger.
We do not owe our lives to our country, but we do owe our lifestyles. the States might not be right often, or even at all, but we must first support our nation.
How did a rant with so much momentum deteriorate into this?
Fair draft? It is picked at random by your birthday? How is that not fair?
Bullshit, there is honor is just serving and doing something for your country. You don’t have ot believe in the cause or accept that you are there to be honorable. Especially after reading how many draft dodgers we have here, just showing up would be pretty honorable.
Why would just showing up be honorable? Those that show up generally fall into three categories: those that would have wanted to serve anyway, those that are too scared to flee or go to jail, and those that would most likely receive some medical deferment that would put them far from action.
With case one, they could be thought of as honorable if you believe choosing to serve is an honorable action, but they would’ve done it anyway.
With case three, I don’t think you can really state something is honorable when a person knows he won’t be near action. I wouldn’t say it’s dishonorable though. It’s just… there.
With case two, how is being too scared to stand up for what you believe in honorable? How is choosing to succumb to the status quo even though you hate it in any way honorable? Now, I wouldn’t say just fleeing to Canadia or Turkmenistan or something is any more honorable. Ah, but those that stay and refuse to be drafted, those that refuse to give up their liberty for involuntary servitude, those that would rather go to jail, would rather fight and possibly die aginst the forces they believe to be truly unjust… That is honorable in my opinion. In many ways, it would be very much akin to the civil rights movement of the '60s, during which you had many young black people go to jail because they refused to follow an unjust policy. Like I said earlier, I love this country, but I will not give up my liberty for some unLockeian, UNAMERICAN, policy.
As for your random birthday draft being fair, my father was able to use that to his advantage. He has a mid-Decemember birthday, and he grew up in Tampa. He knew the figures on how many boys were called up from Tampa, and he was far from that number. So, he requested his status to be changed to 1A or whatever the most draftable status was, and when his number was not called, he was exempt from the draft for the rest of his life. Quite the way of cheating the “fair” draft.
the thing is id have fun with the training cuz thats how i am. but when im over there training doesn do shit…its yuor own wit that saves you…and thru most of the training your trained to lose all but a system of engagement…and i dont like how we’re going about this “War” iraq is gonna be more screwd than it was…cuz we’re setting up their government to fall…unless the people fight for what kind of governemtn they want it wont ever work…
Those who are disqualifeid, yeah, but at least they showed up. With how many people say that they will dodge, there will be some honor in just showing up. Showing up out of fear of jail and stuff is mroe brave than not showing up for fear of death. Honor and fear are spereate. You can be scared and still be honorable, it is how you deal with fear that matters. Also, it is possible to get out of going if you are a conscientious (spelling?) objector. I had some conscientious objectors in my unit and they stayed back and supported. Also, protesting the draft and staying in the country is still honorable, it means that youa re sticking up for yoru morals and your beliefs. Those here who would run though, I don’t consider that honorable.
crin, when you get ready to go over, a lot of training is oriented towards the environment. Some of the training I did this summr gave the guys that went over to Iraq last year flashbacks and they felt like they were there. Training helps develop your wits as you put it. It helps to improve reactions and get an idea of what to expect. It is the same reason that sports teams practice.
If you’re going to do something because you’re more afraid of one thing than another can hardly be called brave. To be honorable, it would be better to face the fear of jail and go through it rather than giving into it. Running, admitadly, is not honorable, but if you’re going to escape jail, it’s just another kind of running.
It really all depends on what you hold dear. If you hold your life more than anything, than avoiding a draft and even military service as a whole would be wise of you. I value my life and my friends/family…so that’s why I enlisted VOLUNTARILY. Those who volunteer to fight and protect their loved ones are honorable because they’re giving up something of theirs, whether it be just time or even their life.
I believe Rangel’s proposed bill got rid of the conscientious objector classification. I read it once, and I think that was in there.
As for the running part, I agree with you somewhat. If one feels so strongly about an issue, one shouldn’t just run and flee the country. One should fight back and protest, even if it means jail or, Heaven forbid, death.
See, I think you are are taking this all the wrong way. Some of you thing one thing has honor, some think something else, etc. I personally dont think my course of action would be particularly honorable, but I dont see why running, or going to jail, or any of the things would be honorable. And, if you think about it, ALL options could be scewed in a way that fear is involved. Fear of jail, fear of death, whatever. Its all relative. You can argue your morals at each other as much as you’d like, but honestly, who will really care?
i think i agree with Herr Rommel that the only real honorable ones are the ones that go to war voluntarily. all of the other ones have their faults.
why do men have to register for the draft and women dont?
thats a little bit sexist isint it?
It’s also a little sexist that women can’t do combat positions in the military.
Nick, I never said that there is no honor in being a soldier. There is a lot of honor in being a soldier. I was saying that the actual process of being involved in war is not honorable. I actually have a lot of respect for those who serve, and believe that there is a lot of honor in serving the nation, but not in killing people based almost entirely on what color fatigues they wear.