I once got a day of detention for refusing to stand during an assembly. I refuse to swear allegiance to anyone, I didn’t ask to be here.
Also, if you aren’t going say it because you don’t want to, you can at least stand up. Unless you are physcially incapable of standing, you should at least stand and say nothing.
Originally posted by Infonick
I would say just stand for it. Yes our current president is fucking moron, but America is still a better country than most others.
I don’t disagree, but that’s not what this is about. It’s not about whether you “should” stand for it, out of your own conscience and respect, it’s about whether anyone has the right to force you to stand for it, and then try to take measures against you when you don’t.
I’m laughing at the asininity of my homeroom teacher.
Today I was forced to sit right by her, and was denied access to the computer. Now, it doesn’t impede my learning at all, but the thing that got me was her statement (and I quote) “If [any of] you don’t stand for the pledge, then you don’t need to be logged into the computers.”
That right there got me to almost burst out in laughter at how completely illegal it is to take a disciplinary action against someone’s constitutional right to freedom of expression. Now, I’m gonna let this slide too, and I’ll talk to her about how what she’s doing is unconstitutional. I don’t mind not getting on the computers for a good, oh, 15 minutes. It’s the principle of the thing. She can either A) Allow us (non-standers) to log in or B) do not allow anyone usage of the computers. Singling out the people that don’t stand isn’t exactly smart.
Originally posted by Infonick
Also, if you aren’t going say it because you don’t want to, you can at least stand up. Unless you are physcially incapable of standing, you should at least stand and say nothing.
No, because that’s still showing some sort of recognition/respect, which I really don’t feel for my country right now. It’s not exactly that I don’t like the president. It’s really my only feasible form of protest currently. As I am not of voting age, all I can do is either idly sit by while the country is made worse and worse, albeit very slowly and in small increments, or I can take my time to falsely show respect to the symbol of a country I greatly disagree with. Once I am able to vote, I’ll gladly stand and say the pledge, but until then I don’t feel the need to.
How about school rules?
No, because that’s still showing some sort of recognition/respect, which I really don’t feel for my country right now. It’s not exactly that I don’t like the president. It’s really my only feasible form of protest currently. As I am not of voting age, all I can do is either idly sit by while the country is made worse and worse, albeit very slowly and in small increments, or I can take my time to falsely show respect to the symbol of a country I greatly disagree with. Once I am able to vote, I’ll gladly stand and say the pledge, but until then I don’t feel the need to.
Then move to Canada. If America so bad, leave.
Originally posted by Infonick
How about school rules?
School rules can be unreasonable, as illustrated by various court cases that ruled in favour of students’ right to freedom of speech.
Originally posted by Infonick
If America so bad, leave.
Did you read what he said at all? He said that he’ll gladly stand up once he has the right to vote (i.e. change the country), but that right now he doesn’t have a voice to do anything other than protest. Also, he didn’t say that America was “bad,” he said that he felt that it was getting worse because of current events. There’s a difference between those things.
Not to mention Steve can’t just right up leave and move to Canada. He’s a minor, and dependant on his family for financial support.
Originally posted by Sephiroth Katana
School rules can be unreasonable, as illustrated by various court cases that ruled in favour of students’ right to freedom of speech. That’s such crap. If I don’t like the way the country is, I have the right to say so any way I please, and work to change it. People who can’t vote can do very little to change it, but they can still protest. Did you read what he said at all before posting this knee-jerk reaction? He said that he’ll gladly stand up once he has the right to vote (i.e. change the country). Also, he didn’t say that America was “so bad,” he said that he felt that it was getting worse. There’s a difference between those things.
That last part was joke. There is a lot involved in moving and shit. Anyway, there are other ways to protest. Like maybe a petition to the school? Maybe research if there are lwas saying he has to stand? Speak with people about why the country is getting worse. As for the voting thing. He won’t be saying the pledge of allegiance by then, so it is sort of like saying “I’ll pay my bills when I’m dead.” (bad exmaple I know, but I can’t think of a better one at the moment), yes he said he’ll pay them, but he’ll be dead and paying them won’t really matter that much. Also, part of life is being false. Is everyone exactly the same all the time? No, they change depnding on the situation. People are different at work than with friends. Different how they are with family than in public. Besides, doing thigns you don’t want is a pat of life. Besides, using the Constitution as the sole means of defense isn’t exactly right either. There other rules and regulations other than the Constituituon. Using it to say that the teacher is impedding his first amendment is crap. Schools have to maintain certain standards and environment. That is partly why there is a dress code. Yes, dress codes impede on freedom of speech/expression. Afterall, you can’t wear a shirt saying “Kill all the Jews” to school. However, some people may feel that way and it impedes their freedom of expression. You may say, yeah, but that can be hurtful and cause problems. Not saying the Pledge of Allegiance can do the same thing. What if someone’s parents are in Iraq right now, they may be hurt if someone doesn’t do it. Also, I’d say America is egtting better. Sure the last few years have been rough, but there are always rough spots. I mean, look at how 18 year olds being able to vote is pretty recent. Also, we no longer have draft. Besides, I’m sure that you have heard that you have to take 1 step back to take 2 steps forward.
Also, part of life is being false. Is everyone exactly the same all the time? No, they change depnding on the situation. People are different at work than with friends. Different how they are with family than in public.
Actually, this is psychological change based on societal influences. Different aspects of your social self, if you will. You may call it “false” if you want, but if that is true then there is no “true” self either, because human beings, as social creatures, are going to always be affected by another member of society in some way or other.
Besides, using the Constitution as the sole means of defense isn’t exactly right either. There other rules and regulations other than the Constituituon.
The constitution is the highest and foremost document in guaranteeing a person’s rights in the United States. If you cannot use the constitution as a sole defense then you pretty much cannot use anything as a defense, as any law forfeits its power if it is found unconstitutional.
Using it to say that the teacher is impedding his first amendment is crap. Schools have to maintain certain standards and environment. That is partly why there is a dress code. Yes, dress codes impede on freedom of speech/expression. Afterall, you can’t wear a shirt saying “Kill all the Jews” to school.
I’m pretty sure that spreading of hateful propaganda is exlicitly written about in the constitution. Steve is not harming or even suggesting the harming of anyone in his refusal to stand up during some pledge.
However, some people may feel that way and it impedes their freedom of expression. You may say, yeah, but that can be hurtful and cause problems. Not saying the Pledge of Allegiance can do the same thing. What if someone’s parents are in Iraq right now, they may be hurt if someone doesn’t do it.
I don’t see how not saying the Pledge of Allegiance will make someone hurt, simply because their parents are in Iraq. Not saying the pledge will not suggest that their parents will die, will not impeded on military performance, will not put any detrimental factor in the way of the wellbeing of anyone, even if their parents are in Iraq.
Originally posted by Infonick
Besides, using the Constitution as the sole means of defense isn’t exactly right either. There other rules and regulations other than the Constituituon.
The Constitution is above them all, though. Also, most reasonable school regulations are there to prevent someone from creating a disturbance that prevents people from learning. Not standing for the pledge doesn’t prevent anyone from learning, because no one is learning during the pledge anyway. It doesn’t create a disturbance, because it’s completely silent and doesn’t even require leaving one’s seat. Unlike your T-shirt example, it doesn’t incite any violence or encourage people to create a disturbance. It’s about as unobtrusive a form of protest as one could possibly think of. Certainly punishing someone for it is much more of a disturbance. I don’t even really disagree with your remarks about why people should stand up for the pledge, but I completely oppose the notion that people should be forced to stand under threat of punishment. As for your comments about the draft, it’s conceivable that a second Bush term might bring the draft back.
Originally posted by Sephiroth Katana
It’s about as unobtrusive a form of protest as one could possibly think of.
That’s exactly why I’m doing it the way I am. If you haven’t guessed yet, I’m not the kind that likes to make waves.
Originally posted by Sephiroth Katana
The Constitution is above them all, though. Also, most reasonable school regulations are there to prevent someone from creating a disturbance that prevents people from learning. Not standing for the pledge doesn’t prevent anyone from learning, because no one is learning during the pledge anyway. It doesn’t create a disturbance, because it’s completely silent and doesn’t even require leaving one’s seat. Unlike your T-shirt example, it doesn’t incite any violence or encourage people to create a disturbance. It’s about as unobtrusive a form of protest as one could possibly think of. Certainly punishing someone for it is much more of a disturbance. I don’t even really disagree with your remarks about why people should stand up for the pledge, but I completely oppose the notion that people should be forced to stand under threat of punishment. As for your comments about the draft, it’s conceivable that a second Bush term might bring the draft back.
What if someone is very patriotic? It can hurt that person, sure not as much as “kill all Jews”, but it can have the same affect. When i say use the Constituition solely, I mean ignore other rules and laws. It isn’t stated in the Constitution that I can’t go 100mph down the street, but it is still a law that I have to follow. I’m just saying that he should look at school rules and policies and see if it is a rule. If there is no rule in the school about saying the pledge, then his teacher is wrong. However, if there is a rule, then he either needs to challenge it like a petition or bring it up to the school board, or simply follow it. However, just saying, that the Constitution doesn’t require and that is it is being a bit ignorant. Besides, it isn’t in the Constitiuion that you can’t burn the flag, however, it is still a law.
The constitution is the highest and foremost document in guaranteeing a person’s rights in the United States. If you cannot use the constitution as a sole defense then you pretty much cannot use anything as a defense, as any law forfeits its power if it is found unconstitutional.
Yes it is the highest, but there are laws other than just the Constitution, such as my speeding one. I’m just saying that he needs to look elsewhere for laws to see if he is breaking one. It says no where in the Constitution that I can’t run around naked, but there are laws in my area and stuff preventing that. However, according to the First Amendment, I have freedom to express myself, and those laws impede my expressing myself. Let’s look at another issue, the second amendment. We have the right to bare arms. Well, what if my friends and I want to forma militia so we carry guns everywhere we go. We’ll, we’re breaking laws and can be arrested. We ahve the Constitutional Right, however, there are laws.
Originally posted by Infonick
Yes it is the highest, but there are laws other than just the Constitution, such as my speeding one. I’m just saying that he needs to look elsewhere for laws to see if he is breaking one. It says no where in the Constitution that I can’t run around naked, but there are laws in my area and stuff preventing that. However, according to the First Amendment, I have freedom to express myself, and those laws impede my expressing myself. Let’s look at another issue, the second amendment. We have the right to bare arms. Well, what if my friends and I want to forma militia so we carry guns everywhere we go. We’ll, we’re breaking laws and can be arrested. We ahve the Constitutional Right, however, there are laws.
But that’s different. It’s not said in the constitution that it’s forbidden to impede upon your right to be naked, which MIGHT be seen as freedom of expression. In this case, it’s easily seen as freedom of expression, and laws impeding that right are immediately null and void due to them being unconstitutional.
Barrelling down a municipal road at 100mph is harmful to society. Forming a militia group is harmful to society. As for running around naked… that’s just a moral formed by society and there’s no reason to not follow it. It’s not exactly harmful either, which is why it’s punished in a much less severe decree than if you were threatening people with firearms. Preventing someone from killing people or creating a hate group is justified. Preventing someone from public flag burnings, which often leads to fights and riots, is justified (the act of burning the flag isn’t really harmful to society, but the ruckus that follow it is…) Preventing someone from expressing disconcent by a harmless an action as sitting down instead of standing up, however, is just silly.
If someone is “very patriotic”, then they should, above all else, believe that our citizens are entitled to their right of free speech and free thinking, and should not object to their choice or mindset. Just assuming that believing in the constitution, the document of which our country was founded upon, is the equivilent to being patriotic. Personally, I find nothing patriotic about a flag. I find everything patriotic about the laws that make this country great in the first place.
Honestly, if someone is “very” patriotic, then I would assume their beliefs aren’t so fragile that a single person sitting during the Pledge would dash them to pieces.
And info, there is a law saying it’s illegal to make someone stand for the pledge in school.
West Virginia Board of Education vs. Barnette, here’s a summary I’m going to print out in case I get anything else about it at school, or if it escalates.
<a href=“http://steve.basicplus.net/images/document2.jpg”>Clicka</a>
Originally posted by Cless Alvein
Barrelling down a municipal road at 100mph is harmful to society. Forming a militia group is harmful to society. As for running around naked… that’s just a moral formed by society and there’s no reason to not follow it. It’s not exactly harmful either, which is why it’s punished in a much less severe decree than if you were threatening people with firearms. Preventing someone from killing people or creating a hate group is justified. Preventing someone from public flag burnings, which often leads to fights and riots, is justified (the act of burning the flag isn’t really harmful to society, but the ruckus that follow it is…) Preventing someone from expressing disconcent by a harmless an action as sitting down instead of standing up, however, is just silly.
Militias are allowed by the Constituition, read the second amendment.
Steve,a ll right, now that’s what I’m talking about. Using something other than just the Constitiution. Good job. While I disagree with your ideas and actions, I have to respect them.
Sorc, a flag is a source of pride. It represents our ideals. It shwos pride the same way college students may wear a sweatshirt with their school’s name on it. It is the same reason people like logos and put stickers on their car. The stickers reprent the organization.
So if people are feeling particularly prideful of America, they can put a flag in front of their house or in their back car window. There’s no need to force all Americans to salute the flag every day, just as there’s no need to force all college students to wear the sweater of their university all the time. To me, saluting the flag seems like an almost religious form of brainwashing.
Originally posted by Curtis
So if people are feeling particularly prideful of America, they can put a flag in front of their house or in their back car window. There’s no need to force all Americans to salute the flag every day, just as there’s no need to force all college students to wear the sweater of their university all the time. To me, saluting the flag seems like an almost religious form of brainwashing.
Who said anything about saluting flags? Nobody has to salute flags except those in the military.