I get the feeling that people are beginning to see such actions as perfectly normal these days… disappointing.
I know what you meant, and I apologize if I’m not clear enough, I have a tendency to say things that sound opposite to what I truly try to express.
Of course someone in the storm’s eye would have a totally different opinion on the matter, but the fact is that we are not there.
That’s precisely my reason not to say anything. I’m not indifferent nor forgiving, but If he wants to be bullied, let someone else do it, because I don’t like wasting my breath on people that don’t care about what I have to say.
Exculpation =| explanation.
If you ever get into a few serious relationships, although you may not have these choices presented to you, you may one day understand the difficulty of some decisions and the complexities involved in the relationship.
Furthermore, you are naive if you think the world is a nice and happy place.
Really? Then maybe I should have brought it up sooner! ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh shit third degree <a href=“http://www.pwned.nl”>PWNEDEDEDED</a>. But in all seriousness, go ahead and talk to her. Don’t complain to me if she doesn’t appreciate it. 
You probably wouldn’t do something like that anyway. But if you did, well, I would think you’d prefer to move on with your life than wallowing in self-hatred for the rest of it. Like I said before, it doesn’t mean you have to approve of what you did, but you have to find some way of getting over it. Whether you believe me or not, I in no way approve of what I did, though I pass off the story rather indifferently or callously. If I could go back, I would not only go back and try to fix things up, but I would have ignored her that fateful day instead of responding to her. I don’t like thinking that someone has to live with what I’ve done. It’s a sign of weakness on my part. I’m not out to change the world or even make it a better place necessarily. But I certainly have no interest in making it a worse place for people. If I were a stronger person I could obtain the things I wanted without disrupting the natural flow of things, and perhaps, even as Zero suggested, make another person happy along with it. But I’m not there yet, nor am I sure I ever will be. But I certainly won’t ever get to that point by hating myself. Self-destruction certainly isn’t going to make anyone a happier person. If anything, it would just make you more callous to the things you do, and more likely to repeat them.
I’ve spent a lot of time thinking this issue over. I feel like part of the reason I get so deep into these situations is because I tend to get involved with people who won’t tell me to stop. I confuse love with weakness. It takes a certain amount of trust to give a person the kind of right I was talking about. But it’s also the easiest thing in the world to abuse, because power, and any sort of power, lends itself to abuse. I have a hard time deciding what I need to take the blame for. Sometimes I think everything, because if I’m the only person regulating myself, then I feel I’m completely responsible for everything that either I or she does. But then, if she didn’t realize that I’d gone over the deepend, or did realize it and still didn’t say anything…was she in a way just asking for it? Any relationship, no matter how one sided, is still a contract. If I break the contract…I would assume she would no longer feel under any obligation to respect it herself. At the point I feel maybe it was her choice to keep respecting it. I suppose maybe I should feel honored if that was the case…but I don’t.
A highly perceptive observation. No, this thread definitely wasn’t a confessional or an apology. Why would I appologize to anyone here for something I did to someone else? I took care of that as best I could in private…though at that point there was really no way to appologize. I am sorry though, there is no doubt about it. Not necessarily so much for what I did, but just that I put us in that situation in the first place. To say I wasn’t aware of my tendencies going into it would be an outright lie. And though I had good intentions, to say I wasn’t aware of what I would doing while I was doing it would also be a lie. It’s very complicated and it makes it hard to know what to appologize for, if anything, or everything.
But you’re right, I did decide to share it, though mainly to get people off my back, as you said. But then it also involved another person who used to belong to the community…in some way I felt people should be aware of it. I’ve generally always kept this kind of stuff to myself, but then I realize that’s one of the reasons contributing to my getting into these situations. People don’t really know the truth about me. I don’t know, for some reason I feel people should know that this situation happened between two people in the community. People should have the knowledge of it and use that to think what they will of the people involved, even if it means people will regard me with a bit of a hesitant eye. But then perhaps that’s how it should be.
But I am quite surprised at the input people have given. You guys are always more perceptive than I assume you will be. I’m starting to think that maybe this place isn’t such a bad place for providing help and psychotherapy to people after all. But Sin, lay off Manus. People really shouldn’t be put down for being idealistic, even if it makes them an easy target or sets them up for many cruel and harsh lessons on life. If it helps them get through the day, or even enjoy some things in life that the rest of us take for granted, it’s not so bad.
Personally, I’m surprised how many people generally accept this as the normal course of things. Are people generally this harsh? I was really under the impression I was an unnecessarily cruel human being. Whether or not this is becoming the norm of behavior, Manus is at least writing in saying it should never be accepted, and it should maybe always even be regarded with shock.
It always strikes me when people talk about themselves in such a manner. I’ve known some of the people around here for years - some of them for about five. To this point, I’ve only met two of them - Merlin and Maz - and while I do act a certain way on the internet, and I do act that way in real life at times, I hope that I impressed upon them a facet of who I really am.
Zeppelin’s been around for a long time, and from the way he acts, he seems like someone I would want to meet and hang around with. But I don’t know Zeppelin, and I have no room to judge him on a specific incident. Sure, he may not be the best person out there - but so what? The only one of his crucifiers that I know in any manner so far is Manus. Delita, I don’t know, you haven’t been here long enough for me to know anything about you.
This isn’t me cutting Manus up, this is me making a point. Making this point might get sort of bloody, but I mean it with the most respect as I can muster.
Manus, your high and mighty attitude is what specifically charactarizes you. You have often talked about your captors; bullies and the like that trap you within yourself and leave you hollowed inside, filled only with the torment of which they constantly provide. You have no ability to stand up for yourself, and by this point in time you don’t even have the self esteem to be able to put up any sort of fight. You have publically accepted many of your faults, which indicates to me that you are only weak. This is reinforced by your constant fantasies of being a powerful paladin - a character charactarized by his upholding of all that is good and true, a being that can do no wrong. You always take such a stance, exploding into how dispicable the acts of others are while implying that if you were in their shoes you would act far more righteous.
This is where it starts.
Without the self esteem to stand up to your tormentors, you will never be able to stand up to a female. You will never be able to claim what you desire (specifically, a female). As such, you have no room to state that you would do anything differently because not only have you never had the opportunity to be in his shoes, but the liklihood that you ever will is minimal - based only on how you constantly state that you will never find love. You won’t ever find love because you can’t allow yourself to leave hollowed out space inside - at this point, it’s all you know, and nothing short of serious talks with a psychologists will alter that.
Now, here comes my point.
I don’t know you. I could be completely wrong. I don’t think I am, but even with all this information that I have pulled together from my years of reading what you’ve said about others, yourself, life and what you feel, I know that there is more to you than this. Why is that, you ask? Because humans are not limited to being just one thing. Sure, you probably are that shell of a man I described above, but I do know that you are an avid role player, a reader, a poet and a gamer. I’m positive it doesn’t even stop there - I’ve probably only scratched the surface of what you are.
What you must all understand is that what Zeppelin did is wrong and hurtful, but if you even think - excuse me, try to define him by these minute actions then you are just as wrong as he is. You cannot label people based on individual events. You may have a window into them of which you can freely look, but to say that Zeppelin is a cold hearted bastard who hates women is an accusation of which you have only one shred of evidence.
I believe people are generally good. They want to do whats best. However, sometime (alot of the time) they mess up. I don’t think a single person in the history of the world has ever done something ‘just to be evil’, and if they have, then I’d like a reference. Our motives are great, our actions are horrible. Too bad they are usually how people see us.
Not that anybody cares, but these kinds of conversations are what make me think so highly of this place. On roughly 99.9% of the other forums I’ve visited, people would be screaming their asses off just for the sake of flaming someone without even considering the facts. So, uh… go RPGC… 'n shit.
If I could just accurately remember that quote from hamlet…
Hey. I know I don’t come around here often, and some of you probably don’t even know who I am. I am someone who used to be around a lot more when I was younger and had more interest in video games. These days, you might occasionally see me in the chat room during my breaks from school. I also read the message boards now and then (mainly political discussions and other threads that don’t relate to RPGs), but I never really post. I am interested in this particular matter though, just because I’ve had a lot of friends on both sides of similar issues. So I do have a view to offer up.
First off, you don’t sound like a misogynist to me. You don’t hold a candle to any of the real misogynists out there. How many of us have sat in a lecture hall before a class and listened to the asshole behind us exchange repartee with his half-wit buddy about the bitch he got to suck him off last night? How many of us have been repulsed at the sight of a person being truly emotionally abusive to their significant other (there’s a guy in my bio lab who repeatedly and harshly calls his girlfriend “stupid” and a “moron” to her face during the lab period, to the annoyance of everyone else in it)? How many of us know somebody who not only regularly uses, degrades, and speaks shamefully of women, but takes delight in it? What sets you apart from a real misogynist is that the stuff you’ve done actually seems to be eating at you a little. You said you thought you had been “an unnecessarily cruel human being.” Maybe you sort of were in this particular instance, but there are people who are repetitively and unremorsefully worse. Probably more people than you think.
Don’t get me wrong; I don’t think well of you for what you’ve done. But considering that I don’t come around here much and this post is probably the single biggest piece of information I have about you, I can’t really characterize you as a bad person. What I do know is that if you feel bad about this and want things to be different, you’ve got some thinking to do. How can you avoid hurting more girls in the future? My suggestion (no, you didn’t ask for it, but I’ll give it and you’re welcome to reject it) is that the next time some sweet, hapless, easily manipulated girl seems to hold some interest in you, put your true attitude on the table at the beginning. Don’t hold back thinking maybe you can be different for this girl. Make it evident from the start that you can kind of be a prick sometimes. You don’t need to be really mean or anything, but don’t give her a false sense of how a relationship with you would be. It’s better to do this now as opposed to a year and a half down the road when she will presumably care about you more.
Really, I think your best chance of breaking this kind of behavior is becoming sufficiently attracted to a girl who won’t take your shit. But seeing how you’ve said you’re drawn to women who are willing to be controlled, I don’t know if that’s a realistic possibility. And who you develop an attraction to isn’t really a thing you can control.
Shit, do you think you’re helping you little fucking prick? If you don’t have anything nice to say, shut the fuck up. From what I’ve seen zep is pretty cool/funny and I think helping him would be a better choice than just saying, “Oh, that sucks, you’re a terrible person. If I’d have known this early, I’d hate you! I hate you!” God damn, that’s retarded. And zep, I honestly don’t think you’re actually like that. You’re the guy that laughs so much people sometimes hit you.
I admit that that was a bit rough, but everyone should expect comments and point of views that are very different from ours.Doesnt mean we have to shut them up, you know?Maybe Manus grew up in a loving family/ neighborhood or something and isnt quite used to all these accidental or not bastardy mistakes people do. Although he may be making zepp feel like shit or something, I dont think you or anyone has the authority to tell what he said was wrong 
Now Im not trying to sound rude or anything, dont get me wrong.
Yeah, telling Manus to shut the fuck up just because he said that was a bit harsh, dude Manus is a nice guy to everyone all around, and Zepp probably is too with people that he knows. It’s hypocritical to call him a prick when you’re only saying it because of one comment…I think Sorceror had the best post out of all of us.
I don’t think people “accept it as normal” so much as they just want to avoid reducing the conversation to a simple affirmation of how much more moral they are than you. Personally, I’d be inclined to say that it isn’t acceptable under any circumstances. However, I also know that “a love affair when the love has gone” (to quote New Order) is a situation where anything one can do at all is liable to be cruel. I’m not shocked by your tale so much as generally saddened; my reaction is, basically, “Man, it’s a shame that turned out that way.”
And, do you want to avoid doing so in the first place?
(Nice to see you again, by the way, ZG.)
I didn’t like the whole abuse part, and I think what you did was too far, but I’m not gonna condemn you for it. Like SK, I’m saddened more than anything else.
Gah, whatever Eva. I’m not putting up with that kind of shit. Especially from fucking MANUS. And after reading Sorc’s post, his last paragraph was right on target. Why are you guys trying to change your entire view of zep from this ONE thing? That’s just stupid. And zep… “I would think you’d prefer to move on with your life than wallowing in self-hatred for the rest of it,” you have no reason to “wallow in self-hatred the rest of your life.” Shit, you’re 21. You’re almost a KID. You’re not even a quarter-way through with your life. You’ll wake up and see how pointless it was to be so upset.
They used to show little videos during PE in my middle school about abusive relationships. That’s what your post sounded like. You remind me of my sister’s ex; control freak bordering on wife beater. Try not to let your behavior escalate.
Foul deeds will rise,
Though all the earth o’erwhelm them, to men’s eyes.
or?
There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.
Zeppelin, you should read “A Hero of Our Time” by Lermontov sometime. I think you’d find it interesting.
sings I see a bad moon rising! I see trouble on the wayyy!
Shame on you zeppy, you awful awful person you. No cocksock for you this christmas.
The last one fell apart anyway. Maybe you could get me something halfway decent this time, hmmmmmmm? Oh ho ho!
Well…can’t the same be said for Manus? Even though his comments may be inappropriate to some, the main point is that Zeppelin obviously isn’t offended or affected by it. You have to understand that not everyone will react the same way as others…