Drunken Sex...

The Core RPGC Main Forum
41

Ok, maybe my analogy wasn’t the best.

But in the real scenario, both people are drunk. How can you be “conciously taking advantage of someone in a pitiable state” if you are in the same state as them?

How can you say that the guy consciously took advantage, and not also say the girl consciously let him?

They’re both drunk, the guy should be capable of making the intelligent decision not to make a move, but the girl isn’t just as capable of saying no?

So men have more free will than women?

There is an obvious double standard here, and it is bullshit.

They guy didn’t take advantage of her, he jumped at an opportunity.

42

Perhaps I have not made myself entirely clear. By trying to point out that the guy shares responsibility in this, I am in no way trying to lessen the burden of responsibilty on the girl. I’m not trying to shift blame, but show that there is more wrong going on than some pre-determined amount that gets shifted between the two characters in our story.

Yes the girl consciously did what she did, and she’s a fool for trying to write it off as due to being drunk. That being so doesn’t make the guy jumping on the…um…situation…not morally reprehensible. It’s not an either or situation. Both are to blame for what each did - the girl for being an idiot, the guy for taking advantage of a situation where he was aware that neither of them was functioning at full mental strength.

If she had given him a gun and asked him to shoot her, would he be less guilty of killing her because she had asked him to do it while he was drunk? No, that would be stupid to think.

43

What are you talking about? There’s nothing inherently wrong or evil about two people having sex. The only way there would be blame or wrong that I can think of right now is if one coerced the other, or took advantage of the other person while they were passed out.
Getting drunk and having sex is not morally wrong, even if you don’t like to do it.

44

Blame? Why does there need to be any blame? Why is the situation “morally reprehensible?”

You keep comparing consentual sex to criminal activities. Its sex, not murder.

Sex is not unethical. It’s not dirty. Its not morally wrong. They both consented, regardless of being drunk. Whats the problem?

It seems to me that you see the sex itself as an evil deed. Sex is not the big deal it seems to be when you’re young. It is just sex. Everyone fucks.

EDIT: Yeah, what ClothHat said.

45

You totally misunderstand me. You could remove sex from this entire thing, and I believe my framework of the give-and-take of responsibility would still apply. Make it be over a can of soda, or something, except that in this case the guy wants to drink the can of soda, not stick his penis into it. I’m simply trying to apply a standard to a situation where there is some ambiguity as to the responsibility of each person involved. In this case the ambiguity is introduced by the drunkenness of each individual.

Perhaps what the problem stems from is that I earlier said that I consider the actions of a person while under the influence of something they knowingly introduced into their system to be equivalent to actions they take while mentally alert. It would probably good to be more nuanced than that, and say that while that should be held true, it doesn’t mean that other people should not be held responsible for the things they do to the first person during that time. I just don’t see how you could possibly justify knowingly taking advantage (in any way, I’m not using this phrase here as a “polite” metaphor for sex) of a drunk person - to me, it’s like an adult slapping around an infant.

46

Being drunk makes it easier to do what you want to do, but are afraid to do.

I think Clothhate pretty much summed everything up but I’ll explain it step-by-step to get the point across…

  1. The guy had been trying to put the moves on this girl before they had drunken sex.
  2. The girl knew he was trying to put the moves on her before they had drunken sex.
  3. The girl knew he wanted to have sex with her, yet chose to get drunk with him.

She told you she knew he wanted her, do you really think she would be naive enough to get drunk with him if she didn’t want him back? Girls are not that naive, whatever they pretend to have been thinking…

Now, you haven’t really explained how they ended up having sex with each other. We they drinking alone? At a party? Did they drink together, or separately and meet each other when they were drunk? These details are important in seeing how premeditated the whole thing was… but regardless, unless she was passed out and raped, she wanted to have sex with him.

47

Once again, by analogy:

  1. Person B tries to kill Person A, and fails.
  2. Person A knows about the attempt.
  3. Person A, like a goddamn saint, forgives Person B gets smashed with him in celebration. But Person A is a fucked up little monkey, gets depressed, and asks Person B to kill her and end the misery. Person B, a morally depraved little shit at his best, agrees, and does so, and gets an erection from the act in gratification or something.

So just because Person A is a stupid little pile of elephant feces, Person B is in no way responsible for what he did?

Lest someone say that killing is too serious to use as an example…

  1. Person A refuses to let person B drink his soda.
  2. Person A knows that person B wants his soda.
  3. A and B get get plastered , and after playing a few rounds of WC3, B asks A for the soda, and A gives it. Of course, B knew in the past that A didn’t want to give up the soda, but that rascal tried to get it anways, and succeeded because both of them were drunk.

I’m saying that because B had pre-existing knowledge of a lucid A’s intentions, B bears blame for circumventing A’s intentions by taking advantage of the situation. At the same time, A has no reason to complain because he allowed all this to happen. Both are wrong, no one is right.

48

wow this is so complicated.

49

Basically, what it boils down to is that you believe the kid took advantage of her, and I don’t.

I believe that under the influence of alcohol, you will not do anything you would not do sober in the right situation. I believe this both through personal experience, (I’ve been drunk a lot and never given in to a couple of my female friends.) and through observing others (That rediculously hot girl, rediculously drunk girl in the bar still won’t give me the time of day.).

Now if the girl had a legitimate mental disorder that skewed her judgement, that would be different. But that has nothing to do with alcohol. And I don’t consider teenage angst a legitimate mental disorder.

Both are wrong, no one is right.

Why are they both wrong if nothing wrong happened? Sex is not wrong. No one was hurt. There is no victim here? Why is there blame?

Let me give my own analogy. (More thought out than the last one.)

  1. Person A wants to play Madden with Person B. Person B doesn’t want to play Madden with Person A.
  2. Person A has asked Person B to play Madden before and been turned down.
  3. One night, they both get drunk and Person A asks Person B to play Madden.
  4. Person B agrees and they play Madden.

Where is the harm in any of that?

50

Well, the girl may regret it. But that doesn’t mean the boy did something morally wrong - it means she simply made a mistake.

51

I will readily admit that I have never been drunk, and can not claim the same personal experience that you can. I can only base what I say on my observations, which have witnessed to the fact that different people react in extremely different manners to alcohol. I know some who don’t change much, I know some who get a little brash, I even know one who becomes something of a sage when inebriated. So I know a good number of people who act a little different when drunk, but don’t do anything they’d really regret. However, there have been cases where I’ve known people to do things they would never consider doing sober, and that’s approaching what’s at issue here: what decides a person’s intentions and actions?

To me, it seems only reasonable to assume that a fully lucid mind determines a persons actions. This mind can get in the way of what a person desires, so yeah, maybe drunkenness enables people to do what they want when they wouldn’t do so otherwise, because they’re literally not in their right mind at the time. I take a person’s sober mental state as the baseline for decision-making.

Now, you say that no one was hurt in Drop Bear’s story. But apparently one person was, the girl. I assume this based on how she apparently said that what she did was a mistake; this indicates regret. The regret is from doing something she would not have done in her normal state of mind, and although she is responsible for her own part in doing what she did, like someone else said, it takes two to tango, and the guy did something with the gal that he knew she didn’t want to do in her normal state of mind. Given that I said that I believe that I take the sober mind as my baseline for judging intentions, perhaps you can see now where I see something worthy of shame and blame to have occcurred?

52

She may regret it and consider it as a mistake, but that doesn’t mean she was harmed by the experience. There were no negative consequences. If anything she benefitted, learning from the mistake.

And people make mistakes while sober too. That is not unique to drunkeness.

To me, it seems only reasonable to assume that a fully lucid mind determines a persons actions.

I agree with this but I think it also goes hand in hand with my statement:

I believe that under the influence of alcohol, you will not do anything you would not do sober in the right situation.

I think that some part of her wanted to have sex with the guy while sober. She had predetermined what situation she’d have to be in (drunk) to have sex with him. Then she put herself in that situation.

For example, lets say there’s this kid that I hang out with who I really don’t like. But I pretend to like him because he’s friends with my friends. What I really want to do is punch him in the face. But I won’t do that because I don’t want to cause trouble, and he never really did anything to me. So one night we’re all drunk and he makes a comment that could be interpreted as an insult, and I make a comment back. Things escalate and I end up punching him in the face.

The alcohol didn’t make me punch him in the face. It made it easier to justify, sure. But I punched him in the face because I truely wanted to.

53

RPT: there’s a difference between RAPE and FUCKING. They fucked. He didn’t rape her. If she was too stupid to control herself, that’s HER problem and it is HER fault for doing it. Alcohol decreases your inhibitions, it doesn’t make women magically gravitate around other men’s penises by unknown or at least unexplained gravitational forces.

RAPE = no consent. FUCKING = consent. If she CONSENTED which she DID, then she loses the autority to blame the guy.

The original car example fails because the car is a)not yours b)it is illegal to steal the car c)the car is an inanimate object which therefore can’t consent to being taken for a ride which wouldn’t matter if it wasn’t yours.

When people fuck, they make the decision to take off their clothes and proceed with the action. Decision implies responsibility. If she is not responsible for her decisions, she needs to be locked up in a nursing home for the mentally impaired. Alcohol does NOT absolve you of responsibility. Furthermore, if one were to use the argument, they were BOTH drunk and therefore neither were at fault :D.

Having a girl say “oh no I don’t know what to do!! He totally put his penis into my vagina and like, I totally did him you know?! But its like, SO BAD! What can I DO!?”, I scratch my head and I say “W-T-F”.

Let’s go back to my example of her fucking another guy in the event she had a BF. Is she absolved of responsibility?! NO! If she were to do that, she is a fucking cunt. The end.

54

Dave: I think we have to remaining points of contention. The first is the statement:

" I believe that under the influence of alcohol, you will not do anything you would not do sober in the right situation."

Perhaps you have a better conception of it in your mind, but to mine the phrase “the right situation” is too ambiguous to be meaningful. Another pretend game: You’re a civilian in double-ya-double-ya two Poland, your village has been captured by some Nazis. You’re the mayor. The SS has all the Jews and gypsies lined up on one side, and the rest of the population on the other. You’re given a gun and told by the CO that either you execute one of the prisoners, or the soldiers will do away with the whole population.

Now, there’s a situation in which you might choose to, assuming a sober mind, commit murder (let’s not bicker about whether it’s moral to do so right now; if that’s not a good enough situation, just think up some other one where you murder would be the “right” thing to do). So we have a “right situation” in which a sober person would commit murder. Does this mean that the same person, drunk, in a different situation, is blameless if he kills? No, and I doubt you’d think so, either.

Now, before I critisize any other part of your post, which might be rendered unnecessary, please tell me more about this “right situation” so we’re both on the same page.

Sin: Consent should not determine responsibility. Please go back and read the hypothetical examples in which I use murder. If a drunk gives you a gun and asks you to shoot him, it’s wrong (ignoring legality, for which the judgement is obvious) to do so unless you absolutely know that it’s something they want in their sound mind, not just a minor desire they supress. This is why I support euthanasia and assisted suicide; if a person a makes a choice in full mental health, it’s different from a choice they make in a condition where their desires have more power.

And, again, I’m not saying that the girl can or should blame the guy and say that it’s fault that what happened happened in full. I blame him and he should blame himself for taking advantage of a situation, and she should be rightly angry that he, knowing full well that she normally would not have done what she did, did what he did indeed do. In conclusion, the letter “D.”

And again, I’m talking about the moral side of things. To talk about how things would fit together legally is something I’m not qualified to do, but I have my suspicious about how a few things would work.

55

RPT: there’s a difference between RAPE and FUCKING. They fucked. He didn’t rape her. If she was too stupid to control herself, that’s HER problem and it is HER fault for doing it. Alcohol decreases your inhibitions, it doesn’t make women magically gravitate around other men’s penises by unknown or at least unexplained gravitational forces.

I agree with you, but as I stated earlier in some places, (ie. where I live) it is legally considered rape since a girl can not “legally” give consent while drunk. There is an honest to God law for that. There was a case last year where a drunk guy was convicted of raping a girl when the girl even ADMITTED she never told him no and actually wanted it at the time, but that she was just too drunk to think clearly. There is a lot of insanity out there.

56

He needs to appeal that law. That is retarded. I mean, wow o_O.

The murder example is invalid because murder is different from fucking, no matter how bad either partner is in bed. In this situation consent is a conscious choice. She did not start magically gravitating around the guy’s dick against her will and all natural forces. Saying she should rightly blame the guy and be angry about it absolves her of responsibility for her decision and that is absolutely absurd because I don’t know if you’ve ever gotten laid or not, but if the girl doesn’t want to, its REALLY hard and for them to have sex means it was not really hard and she did it. Guys don’t just fuck girls. Girls fuck guys too.

What do you have to say about the chick cheating on her bf? Is she absolved of her responsibility? What do you say about my point that the fact he was under the influence, by your argument, he is also absolved of responsibility?

In this argument, we need to remember a harsh fact of reality: a lot of people are fucking stupid. Both men and women. Therefore, it is not unreasonable that this bitch did something stupid and being a stupid person, has the reaction I ridiculed earlier.

57

I refuse to continue arguing with you RPT.

You keep comparing sex with things like murder, grand theft and assisted suicide. You’re way off base.

You claim to be taking the “moral stance,” but that just sounds to me like you think of sex as being morally wrong.

You insist on placing blame where I don’t think there is any. If you really want to blame someone, blame the chick.

Again, you think he took advantage of the girl. Myself, Sin, and just about eveyone else disagrees with you.

You want to hear an example of the “right situation?” Fine. But I’m not using any of your innacurate hypotheticals.

Those two are hanging out, sober. The dude completely spills his guts about how he’s been in love with her for years. He gives her a poem he wrote. He gives an empassioned speach about how good a couple they would make. She is so overwhelmed with his display of love that it wins her over and she fucks his brains out.

58

… Jesus christ, I’ve created quite a debate. I’ll respond when I get home from work and give more details.

59

Man, Dave, You don’t even need that much to get a girl to want to do a guy (although theoretically, that’s not a good approach). I’ll spare the visitors details of why. Getting girls to want to do you is easier than shooting fish in a barrel. If you understand how it works, its not even a fucking sport and you don’t even need alcohol.

60

:toast:
Spoken like a true pimp.

Dude, I know that. I would never pull anything as sappy as what I said. That is frigging pathetic.

RPT wanted an example of what the “right situation” might be from my earlier statement: " I believe that under the influence of alcohol, you will not do anything you would not do sober in the right situation." So from her perspective, I gave that sappy example of a situation where she might hook up with him sober.

Personally, I am a fan of the drunken hookup.

Also, your crazy editing makes it hard to respond.