Jehova’s Witnesses believe that only 144,000 will be saved, they don’t have anything to do with mormons.
And Silhouette, the first group of verses you quote merely say that homosexuality is a sin. I don’t see what would be repulsive about that text.
The second group of verses are misused. David and Jonothan were good friends, not lovers.
1st Samuel 18:1-4 states that they became good friends. Jonothan was the son of a king, so his garments were very valuable. Jonothan is giving gifts of great value to a good friend, not stripping for him. One of the ommited parts in the verse is “…Even his sword, his bow…” He didn’t just give clothing. He was giving him his treasured belongings as well. If you give your friend some clothes and some stuff, does that make you two gay lovers?
1st samuel 19:2 reads (NIV) "and warned him, “my father Saul is looking for a chance to kill you. Be on your guard tomorrow morning; go into hiding and stay there.” I think you have the wrong reference.
The first part of 20:30 does not read Saul was angry with Jonothan’s homosexual affair. It merely says he was angry with him. Saul is saying he has shamed his mother and himself (essentially his blood) by favoring David over Saul.
Them kissing one another would have been a kiss on the cheek, a sign of brothers. There are many places in the world where a kiss on the cheek is used as a greeting or a farewell.
Sorry Sil, it just so happens that Christians view homosexuality as a sin, and back then the punishment for all sin was death.
I’ll just sorta leave it at that.
EDIT: For the record, I have nothing against homosexuals, I just don’t like what they practice, and see THAT as wrong, not THEM. They should be treated with dignity just like everyone else.
Yeah, what Obadiah said. My dad is homosexual (well, bisexual), and while I don’t like homosexuality, I don’t hate him for it. We have a good relationship.
The only part of the bible I agree 100% is the one at the post that started this thread. as for the rest, if I owned a bookstore, it’d go in the Fiction area.
Originally posted by Obadiah For the record, I have nothing against homosexuals, I just don’t like what they practice, and see THAT as wrong, not THEM. They should be treated with dignity just like everyone else.
Huh?
I do not believe that there is anything wrong with homosexuality. It has been proven by science that homosexual is a perfectly naturally occuring phenomenon and has a purpose in nature, and I trust science. Male bedbugs, for instance, engage in homosexual activity, and the recipient collects the sperm from the mounting male and adds it to his own. This ensures a diverse gene pool.
Originally posted by Curtis The Bible has a lot of truth in it, and I don’t think it should be written off. In fact, I believe it should be taught as literature in high school.
I agree, although I am bound to disagree with you on how much truth the Bible contains.
I think Obadiah is saying he personally finds homosexuality disgusting, but thinks homosexuals should be allowed to practice it in the name of tolerance. Actually, that’s probably the viewpoint of a lot of moderate Americans.
Originally posted by Curtis I think Obadiah is saying he personally finds homosexuality disgusting, but thinks homosexuals should be allowed to practice it in the name of tolerance. Actually, that’s probably the viewpoint of a lot of moderate Americans.
Then he ought to phrased his argument differently, because, if he believes that there is something wrong with it, then he obviously does have a problem with it.
Homosexuality is a sin just like any other and, like any other sin, the punishment for it is death. All sins are equal in the eyes of God. A Christian should try to eliminate sin from his or her life however. “Everything is permissiable, but not everything is benificial.” Basically you can do anything, but it will and can destroy you. If you murder someone, and ask for forgiveness through christ, you can be saved. The earlthy consequences will not pass you by though. Living in a Homosexual lifestyle can also be destructive. I read two years ago that the average life expectancy for a homosexual male was 49 (It may have gone up or down recently, I’m not sure) A truly Christ following Homosexual, would try to eliminate all sin from his life, which would mean leaving that lifestyle. A person enveloped in the drug-culture would be making more destructive decisions, not only to themselves, but to the ones around them. Everyone lives sinful lifestyles, but some are more destructive than others, and some are more difficult to leave behind.
And unlike the bedbugs, human homosexuality serves no purpose for reproduction. I think it is safe to say it is counter- productive.
Originally posted by Thomas Paxton Like any other sin, the punishment for it is death.
Osama Bin Laden, Mullah Ohmar, Al-Suquf, the Ayatholas, Kali followers, those Sarin guys… they all agree. If someone doesn’t follow your religion’s teachings very strictly, they deserve to die.
Oh My Lord, High up there in the Heavens, I beg you to save me – FROM YOUR FOLLOWERS!!!
Thomas, you’ve just shown you’re as fanatical as most terrorists.
The difference is, christians give people chances to repent. Terrorists just assume everyone is evil adn kills them. Instead of death, we use eternal damnation. Go figure.
I believe you misread me. I’m not saying I am going to kill everyone who sins. It’s not my job to judge others. Judgement belongs to God. The punishment for sin is eternal seperation from God, or Hell.
No one should run around killing people because they feel that the other person wronging himself or others. Anyone who murders a homosexual on that premise is a vile, sick person. Similar with that guy who was bombing abortion clinics. Abortion may be wrong, but bombing clinics is even worse.
I’m afraid I don’t remember what article I got that from, two years is quite some time. I’ll look around for it and see if I can post it up.
EDIT: Here is one of 'em:
Life expectancy for a 20 year old gay or bisexual man is 8 to 20 years less than the average male. The authors estimate that " nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently age 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday." Source: Hogg. RS., Strathdee, SA., Craib, KJP., O’Shaughnessy, MV., Montainer, JSG., Schechter, MT., " Modeling the impact of HIV Disease on Mortality in Gay and Bisexual Men," International Journal of Epidemiology, Vol. 26, No. 3, 1997, pp. 657-61.
Here is another:
In 1998, another study using four contemporary databases suggested that homosexual activity may be associated with a lifespan shortened by 20 to 30 years. Source: Cameron, P., Cameron, K., Playfair, WL., " Does Homosexual Activity Shorten Life? ", Psychological Reports, 1998, 83, pp. 847-66.
Oh, but I mean, WHY does it shorten the lifespan? Before I get an explanation to that, I cannot believe it. Until then it just sounds like propaganda trying to scare people from what they believe in.
The studies mostly conclude that AIDS is the leading cause of death, however some studies don’t really mention HIV or AIDS and have difficulty finding Homosexuals over the age of 59.
Studies like this one:
From 1969 through 1970, the Kinsey Institute surveyed homosexuals in San Francisco. Although they recruited respondents in eight different catagories, only 23% of male homosexuals and only 18% of lesbians were over the age of 45, despite the fact that the investigators tried for 25% from this age group. Their initial decision to draw only a quarter of their sampling from homosexuals over 45 indicates they already knew the problem existed, and they ended up omitting figures on age distribution from their report.
In 1977, the largest survey of homosexuals reported 0.2% of lesbians and 0.8% of homosexual males were age 65 or older.
Heres the one where I got the number 49:
In 1994, an obituary study revealed that the median age of death for homosexual males was 42 and for lesbians was 49. Source: Cameron, Playfair, Wellum, " The Longevity of Homosexuals: Before and After the AIDS Epidemic, " Omega Journal of Death and Dying," 1994
Poke around a bit on a search engine. It comes up pretty quickly. Generally I think AIDS is the main cause. Look up these reports on your own for the full text, these are just summaries.
hmm, just thought that some of you might find this interesting… http://www.reality.org.nz/articles/35/s5-sy.html
It pretty much sums up my views on homosexuality
eg, “yeah, it’s wrong, but no one’s perfect, and that’s where they happened to mess up.”
You may find it an enlightening article about Christians perspectives on homosexuality.
Oh, and the author Sy Rogers has a pretty interesting story also, you may or may not wish to do some research on him, but I suggest so if you’d like an interesting read.
Originally posted by Thomas Paxton Studies like this one:
Dude, the Kinsey study is over 20 years old. 20 years ago, AIDS was still relatively new and unknown, compared to now. People didn’t know about it, since unlike other sexually transmitted diseases, it doesn’t cause any obvious symptoms. Now the awareness is much higher. Someone who got the disease way back then, in their youth, might only unearth its effects now; in a generation or so, the increased awareness will make the numbers much more even, since AIDS is now not limited to gay people.
Additionally, homosexuality can’t be compared with doing drugs because no one is born with an inherent tendency to do drugs. I’m aware that you “know” cases where supposed homosexuals stopped being homosexual or something, but that is anecdotal evidence rather than general proof. Additionally, some homosexuals will probably indeed repress their homosexuality because of their (or other people’s) religious beliefs, but that would only make their lives harder, just as it would be harder for you to live if you were to decide to engage only in homosexual sex while not being homosexual.
Originally posted by The Wizardmaster The difference is, christians give people chances to repent. Terrorists just assume everyone is evil adn kills them. Instead of death, we use eternal damnation. Go figure.
…except terrorism is not a religion. There are Christian terrorists- such as those who bomb abortion clinics. Be careful about the terms that you use.
Also, terrorists don’t assume that EVERYONE is evil- just people who think differently from them.
Just like you think that homosexuality is evil- but you are not a terrorist (I am assuming) because you aren’t going out and killing people in the name of heterosexuality, or whatever.
SK: You’re making the assumption that people are born with tendencies to be one way or the other and not a choice. There is no biological, genetic, or hormonal evidence that shows that people are born this way. Instead it is a disorder brought about by a child’s family conditions or past traumitizations such as abuse and rape.
The Center for Disease Controle reached conclusions that were similar to Cameron’s. It isn’t just Cameron that reached those conclusions.