I would actually argue that even in Suikoden, you don’t really DO much with the characters you get. Suikoden 1 and 3 had a lot of pointless characters that didn’t add really anything to the experience, other than facilitating the gameplay. Suikoden 2 put a bigger emphasis on them…which is unfortunate, because I think it would have been better were it more like 1 and 3 in that regard, and 1 and 3 were more like 2.
You’re missing the point.
Of 108 characters, there are obviously going to be a lot that are not vital. Yet you can still get something or other from them, at least from Suikoden 2 onwards. It’s not much, but it’s there. And again, it opens up mechanics and all the stuff I’ve just said.
Of Radiata’s 177, NONE OF THEM SERVE ANY PURPOSE OUTSIDE OF BATTLE. EVER. NONE OF THEM.
I’m not complaining about the existence of recruiting in Radiata. In fact, you can ignore it completely and nothing will happen since it contributes absolutely nothing. It’s boring and monotonous if you do go through with it completely, but I can’t fault the game with that since it allows you to skip it with no consequence to anything. It makes absolutely no effort to encourage you to recruit, the system is introduced by a clerk as an afterthought somewhere close to the end of the long introduction and it never comes up again in any form.
Think Tetra Master in FFIX. Only Tetra Master, not Triple Triad. The latter actually has a point to it. That’s about as much of a spotlight as this gets. The system is obviously more complex, but that just highlights the degree to which there is wasted potential in the game, the thing itself makes no emphasis on it. In fact, most of the time you need to jump through hoops to avoid triggering new missions if you want to keep recruiting, since the game forces you into plot events that take you as far as possible form that.
This whole thing started with Hades going apeshit on me because I dared look at a game for the faults it had in every area you’d expect a game’s content to be in, instead of focusing on the “clearly main”, “puzzle” gameplay element that’s neither main nor puzzle, all in the basis that’s more of a timesink than the rest of the game.
Let me make this easy: Imagine me insulting you for not like Disgaea on the basis that you didn’t clock 200 hours on the Cave of Ordeals and instead just played the content presented to you on the main game. What would your reaction be to that?
How many times is the sphere grid mentioned after the first hour of FFX? Just because a game doesn’t keep slapping your wrists about something doesn’t mean it’s not an integral part of it.
RS is designed so that your experience with it grows into one of character recruitment and not just powering through whatever plot items happen to be thrown at you. One of the first hook-lines on the back of the box is “Recruit over 175 characters,” and even though understanding the story is just as unnecessary to completion of the game as recruitment is, many of the characters are, in spite of your completely unsupported wishful thinking, involved in it. In fact, a pretty hefty number of them are, if you bothered to recruit them and actually read what they say. I’d even argue that the story the game presents you with is only a fraction of the total story you get by going around and getting to know the characters and what they do over the course of a day while trying to get them to join your cause. There’s more to story than plot advancement. RS is an interactive world, almost like an MMO, except that it’s driven by AI. The game assumes you’re going to recognize this and try to explore instead of just fetching and killing shit to advance the underwhelming, perfunctory plot. Do you want it to apologize for not holding your hand?
You can beat Pokemon and Suikoden very easily without any extra recruitment. It’s pretty obvious that’s not why people play them, though.
Of course, not paying attention to the grid at all gets you killed immediately since you never level up. Not recruiting more than enough characters to make a four-man party never has any effect or anything. Especially in the nonhuman path where anyone but Gil and the huge red ogre sucks ass (Seriously, ELVES have no very good HEALERS? What the fuck?). And four is an exaggeration, the grand majority of plot events shove a few characters on you regardless of your will.
Uh, whut? Characters not scripted to be there are never there during any scene, and there is no change whatsoever to the dialogue related to anything regardless of whether you recruited them or not. Give me one example. Just ONE.
And I did recruit them. All of them. I wouldn’t be talking about a game I haven’t played completely.
I’m perfectly ready to admit this, I keep repeating that I loved the characters. As well as the fact that it’s thoroughly wasted. I would have loved to learn more about Elwen’s past, who Alfred was and how the Avcoor played into that. How Alicia interacted with Elwen, seeing as she descended from Alfred. Where the fuck Nyx and Sonata came from, what were they doing in Radiata. More history about the leaders of the guilds, particularly Kain and his relationship with Enjela. The whole faction war in Olacion which is never resolved or even progresses beyond the mention that it is going on. I wanted to see Jack truly earn Natalie’s trust and respect. I wanted more goddamn Genius, seeing as he was introduced so early and then vanishes into thin air until you stumble on him in the sewers.
Except… you don’t. The characters have character, I loved that, but they all end up wasted thoroughly. Even Jack’s own SISTER has no involvement in anything, which you think she should considering the whole deal with the death of Cairn.
The only recruitment that had enough content to truly be considered anything resembling a subplot was the scene between Gerald and Nocturne. That was fucking awesome, that really was worthwile. Sadly, it was the only time that happened. That just left a hundred and seventy-something other characters with no developed story.
Suikoden gets away with this because there is a large enough cache of plot-relevant non-optional characters that do get focus. The rest are a bonus, the game itself gives you plenty to chew on. Considering the extremely lacklustre development of the miniscule cast, Jack himself included, Radiata doesn’t get to do that.
Also, now you’re talking about character interaction and plot, the thing you told me not to pay any attention to before, instead of the oh so wonderful “puzzle” aspect. I fucking LOVE scourging for tsuchiwhatchamacallit, playing city-wide hide-and-seek with Wolverine and Nightcrawler’s lovechild and leveling the wizard’s kid sorry ass who I will never use again!
Oh, come on. That story was such drivel (not as bad as the LOUD Italian music my neighbor is playing, but yeah… not much is). Teenagers becoming an elite military force (mind, not just meant to fight monsters, but actually ENGAGE IN MILITARY CONFLICTS)? The boring, predictable romance between “I have no emotions oh wait I can still love” Squall and “idealistic and strong but still needs a man” Rinoa? You already mentioned the ridiculously convenient coincidences as well as EVERY ONE OF THOSE FUCKERS HAVING AMNESIA. So, yeah. It’s a bad story. It’s still the second best FF story. The only way it could have been worse is if you had to save the fucking Goddamned sonofabitch crystals. 
Also, the sniping in a clocktower, while not an RPG cliché, is still a cliché.
I’m still trying to get over the fact that the guy chosen by an elite paramilitary organization to execute the highest-profile political assassination in over a decade HAD NEVER FUCKING SHOT ANYONE BEFORE.
But then again, if we started listing details and plot points that make no bloody sense in FFVIII, we’d be here all day. To this day, the whole deal with the antenna and the radio silence still confuses the shit out of me.
Originally Posted by Seraphim Ephyon
[i]
Quote:[QUOTE]Originally Posted by Killmore View Post
You do realize SE that you’re talking about a Tri-Ace game. And if you’re playing a Tri-Ace game for the plot then you are doing it wrong. Seriously, they make bad soap writers look good.
I’m playing them for the character interaction and dialogue, Valkyrie Profile was beautiful until the fucking Dragon Ball deus ex ending. So was Star Ocean 2… well, Ashton was.
And my point was that, unlike SO3, Radiata starts WONDERFULLY. And that Hades’ claim that the recruiting was the intended or anywhere near best focus of the game, nevermind worth spending more than ten, let alone THREE HUNDRED hours (Seriously, what!?), makes about as much sense as Flavor Flav winning the presidental election.[/i][/QUOTE]
As I mentioned before, RS like every other Tri-Ace game will take a good plot premise and turn it into a makeshift latrine by the end. Hoping for anything else is like hoping that Gonzo doesn’t do the exact same thing to their anime. And just like Gonzo ‘one comes for the premise, one stays for the cheese/fanservice’.
At the very best one can only hope that their plots pull a VP or a Tower of Druaga where it’s only at the end when the game/anime pulls something incredibly stupid.
Cliché can be cool, and every story sounds redundant and ridiculous when you reduce it to its most basic premise. The joy is in the details.
You just want to be Rinoa’s little man-toy.
GAP I have to ask: What is the best Final Fantasy story?
FFIII/VI, sillypants.
I like seeing the guy get the girl, and FFVI didn’t have that. It’s still better than VIII though, but I like different things about both of them. VI was so epically well done that’s it’s hard to argue against it.
I am probably one of the few people who thinks FFVIII’s story is better than FFVII’s though. But that’s because FFVII’s story, as with most FFs is… well… dumb.
And damned right you can’t argue against it, you stinky mammal!
I liked FF8’s story a lot. I have to agree with Hades, if it weren’t for the cheesy ass “OMG the gf’s made us forget about everything!” bullshit and if the draw system wasn’t there I’d enjoy it much more. I like the story aside from that.
So what’s DR playing first?
Yeah, no shit.
Well, I started Suikoden V. Just kinda happened. Heh.
Nice. I’d save Nocturne for last honestly since it will be the most time consuming, especially if you wanna max out your character’s level. That and it will hand your ass to you a few times on a silver platter and say “Dig in, chump.”
Oh, my. Nobody likes to eat their own ass, even if they ARE that flexible.
Speak for yourself, GAP.
Also,though I’m willing to admit I probably wasn’t in the most receptive of moods when I played VI, I never found myself really getting intot he story. It always was just kind of ‘eh’ to me. I did enjoy VII’s story, even if it wasn’t the greatest. I found I enjoyed the characters more.
Well, somem of the characters.
Also: AC blows. I preferred Sephy when he just wanted to be God instead of wanting to all the stupid shit with his mommy.
Dude, he was a momma’s boy in the original game.
Yeah, I know. But goddammit, he wasn’t so goddamn annnoyingly smug about it. Maybe because we rarely had to listen to him talk.
Also, I dunno, I really just preferred “I AM A GOD” to “I’MA TAKE THIS PLANET AND CRASH IT INTO OTHER PLANETS SO I CAN…ER…DO IT AGAIN?” I know it’s still stupid but goddamn.
Goddamn.