The Princess And The Frog

So, what do you people think about Disney’s latest (and maybe last?) hand-animated movie?

I just saw it (took my sister to see it as a Christmas gift; my niece was also invited but she had to train for a Sorority dance) and I think it was OK, but I’m puzzled by a couple of things.

The first was the pacing. Is it me, or did everything happen TOO quickly? To the point that it was, sometimes, hard to believe how the characters came to their decisions? Examples: Lawrence joining in on Dr. Facilier’s scheme without even talking to him; the frogs trusting the goofy alligator after having almost being eaten by several of them; even the romance seemed a little rushed- though being a Disney Fairy Tale -deconstructed as it may seem at spots- I guess you CAN fall in True Love and then marry a near-complete stranger in what, two days? I suspect they spent a little too much time in the setup sequences (though they did capture the mystique of 1920’s Orleans perfectly) and then had to speed up the rest of the movie. (Or maybe I’m just too used to movies that take their time with their character development. :stuck_out_tongue: )

My other big beef is that there really was no need for Ray’s death. I mean, in a Disney movie, the only ones who usually die are the villains! Yes, I know, it was a way to get him to finally be with his love (a star) but that whole concept seemed out of place in the movie; you could’ve cut it out and nothing important would have changed.

I’m a bit surprised by the backlash the movie has received. After complaining that Disney had yet to have a Black Princess (which is a fair criticism) many people were pissed anyway by TP&TF. Maybe they weren’t expecting them to use the Black Poor People approach, instead of having Tiana just be a real princess (though obviously Disney was just trying to recapture that turn-of-the-Century charm their earlier films, like The Aristocats and 101 Dalmatians, had.) I heard some people complain that the Prince “wasn’t Black enough” (well, OK, his face doesn’t look that African, but Tiana’s definitely was. And isn’t ignoring racial traits the whole POINT?) Some people criticized the use of Voodoo (I understand that one; first, Voodoo is a religion, not a magic cult, though of course some people exploit it that way, the way Santeria does with Christian beliefs; and second, they used every voodoo stereotype in the book (though ironically enough, Voodoo isn’t supposed to turn you into a frog that I know; a zombie maybe, but not frogs). Why not just have Facilier and the Madam just be “generic” witches, to avoid all that criticism? Though I must admit, basing Facilier on the Voodoo god Baron Samedi (judging from his clothing) was a nice touch.

(Hmm. I wonder if, despite his nasty ending, Facilier will be back, in a sequel? Perhaps… as a ZOMBIE!!)

I DID find some mildly offensive sterotypes in this movie, mind you. But not with the Black people. I think the Cajun Hillbilly Hunters were groan-inducing terrible. And Tiana’s White childhood friend as a the very embodiment of the Idiot Blonde was also awful. Funny, but awful. But hey, at least she was shown as nice to Tiana, even willing to give up the opportunity to be a Princess to make her happy. Though I’m sure some people will complain that the white girl was the one with all the money (thus missing the whole point.)

Overall, I like The Princess And The Frog. I think it could’ve been a little better, but it’s still a worthy Disney Princess Movie. I hope there’s a sequel, or a crossover with some of the other movies. And yes, I hope it’s drawn by hand. I know, we’re in the Digital Era, and those Pixar movies (that Disney now also owns) are wonderful. But there’s a certain charm to this style that I hope is never lost.

Baron Samedi/Papa Ghede wasn’t an explicitly evil figure (in fact, one of his traits was being kind to children), so it’s not a really nice touch, just another stupid stereotype the movie continues with more malice than humor.

That said, I haven’t seen it, and won’t; a girl from New Orleans informed me that it was the worst thing to happen to her city in decades.

The movie never names Samedi (or any other Voodoo entity); I only know Facilier is based on him because I read it elsewhere. I didn’t detect any malice towards the religion in the movie, other than the fear that The Shadowman (Facilier) caused in some people (and that was because they knew he was EVIL). And hey, at least they balanced things by also having a good Voodoo user! Still, as I said they should just have called them witches and avoided the whole matter.

I’m curious, Arac: what exactly offended your friend about the movie? Was it any of my points above?

Worse than Katrina and its handling?

One of his other traits was really, really, really, really, really loving sex. That’d be something for a Disney film…

Put briefly, I absolutely loved the movie. Full review here.

To address some of your issues:

-Dr. Facilier did talk to Lawrence, and in fact was very convincing about why he should join him (he’d been pushed around his entire life). Also don’t forget that the prince had already turned into a frog at that point, so Lawrence probably felt he had nowhere to go but up.
-Lou was obviously a total whackjob and acted totally different from the other alligators. It reminded me of Tiger from An American Tale.
-I thought New Orleans was presented in a very positive light, and as mentioned, nowhere does it say that voodoo is bad; there’s a bad voodoo user and a good one in the movie. They couldn’t have called them witches, because while New Orleans is known for voodoo, it isn’t known for witchcraft. It would have killed the entire premise and setting.
-Of course there was no need for Ray to die. It was still a profoundly touching scene and very well executed. They could have taken it out, but why should they have?

As for the stereotypes, one of the smartest and most capable beings in the movie (Ray) was also a Cajun. In fact I thought they did quite well to avoid stereotypes. Frankly, no matter what they did they would have had complaints. If the prince was obviously black the moral would have been “only blacks can marry each other”. If he was white it would have been “black girls try to get white rich guys”. People try to read far too much into anything. Bottom line, it was a great story and I didn’t find any unfortunate implications in it.

I hope there isn’t a sequel or tie-in. The movie works fine on its own. There’s no need to dilute it by artificially extending the story.

[QUOTE=Cidolfas;646325]

-Dr. Facilier did talk to Lawrence, and in fact was very convincing about why he should join him (he’d been pushed around his entire life). Also don’t forget that the prince had already turned into a frog at that point, so Lawrence probably felt he had nowhere to go but up.

Sure, there was a scene that explains why Lawrence is working with Facilier. But when they met, all he had to do was give Lawrence a CARD with an image of him as the rich one and then they shake hands on it- all in the middle of a musical number! If only they had, for example, hinted that the two had already met and Lawrence was leading the Prince into a trap, it would have made more sense than risking his career for an unknown scheme with a total stranger.

-Lou was obviously a total whackjob and acted totally different from the other alligators. It reminded me of Tiger from An American Tale.

Riiight. Because a crazy alligator is obviously safer than a sane one. :stuck_out_tongue: I was expecting him to save them from the other gators, you know, something that actually proved he was trustworthy.

They couldn’t have called them witches, because while New Orleans is known for voodoo, it isn’t known for witchcraft. It would have killed the entire premise and setting.

I meant “witches” in the context of “magic user” or “magician” in other words, something not attached to any particular set of beliefs. And considering these Voodoo Users had very little in common with actual practitioners, it wouldn’t have been much of a stretch.

-Of course there was no need for Ray to die. It was still a profoundly touching scene and very well executed. They could have taken it out, but why should they have?
Because it a) is too sad for most children of the movie’s target age and b) the whole thing doesn’t fit in with the rest of the story to begin with? (especially after all that “stars aren’t really magical” subtext.)

Frankly, no matter what they did they would have had complaints. If the prince was obviously black the moral would have been “only blacks can marry each other”. If he was white it would have been “black girls try to get white rich guys”. People try to read far too much into anything.
I completely agree with you here.

I hope there isn’t a sequel or tie-in. The movie works fine on its own. There’s no need to dilute it by artificially extending the story.
One of the complaints on the movie is that Tiana spends most of it as a frog. A sequel would give her human form more exposure. Assuming she doesn’t get “toadized” again. :stuck_out_tongue: Besides, it’s a Disney Princess movie; that the characters will reappear in a sequel or crossover (or even in Kingdom Hearts!) is almost a given.

I really hope there is no sequel. Sequels ruin the Happily Ever After magic of the first.

I didn’t really think the alligator part was rushed.They were united by their love of music.

Sure, there was a scene that explains why Lawrence is working with Facilier. But when they met, all he had to do was give Lawrence a CARD with an image of him as the rich one and then they shake hands on it- all in the middle of a musical number! If only they had, for example, hinted that the two had already met and Lawrence was leading the Prince into a trap, it would have made more sense than risking his career for an unknown scheme with a total stranger.

The hint is there with their second meeting. The discussion isn’t shown but is implied. Not everything has to be spoonfed to you.

I was expecting him to save them from the other gators, you know, something that actually proved he was trustworthy.

The guy obviously could barely be relied to not trip over his own feet. Besides, he had every reason to go with them and not kill them: he wanted to become human, so he’s headed in the same direction, and both frogs were much smarter than he was.

I meant “witches” in the context of “magic user” or “magician” in other words, something not attached to any particular set of beliefs. And considering these Voodoo Users had very little in common with actual practitioners, it wouldn’t have been much of a stretch.

It’s a slightly stereotypical view, certainly, but common, in much the same way “witch” is used as magicians in a way that will probably offend any Wiccans out there. It was consistent with the setting and made sense in context. That’s all.

Because it a) is too sad for most children of the movie’s target age and b) the whole thing doesn’t fit in with the rest of the story to begin with

I already felt that the vast majority of the humor went over all the kids’ heads, and where were you in The Lion King? And it can’t “not fit with the rest of the story”. It’s a plot point. Somebody dies. I don’t understand your entire problem with it.

Me? No. The average audience, especially the children? Yes.

The guy obviously could barely be relied to not trip over his own feet. Besides, he had every reason to go with them and not kill them: he wanted to become human, so he’s headed in the same direction, and both frogs were much smarter than he was.

He had that reason after meeting the frogs. Unlike Tiger, Louis never told them he didn’t eat frogs.

It’s a slightly stereotypical view, certainly, but common, in much the same way “witch” is used as magicians in a way that will probably offend any Wiccans out there. It was consistent with the setting and made sense in context. That’s all.

As you said, somebody will ALWAYS complain no matter what you do. And no, it makes no sense because as I noted, Voodoo isn’t supposed to transform people. In fact, as we saw towards the end, that curse had far more in common with fairy tale magic (what with needing a princess’ kiss, the definition of what counts as princess, etc.) Sorry, but other than forcing it to fit into the setting, there really was no point in making Facilier and Mama Voodooists. Not that it’s a big deal, mind you, this is after all a Disney cartoon; just being logical here.

I already felt that the vast majority of the humor went over all the kids’ heads, and where were you in The Lion King? And it can’t “not fit with the rest of the story”. It’s a plot point. Somebody dies. I don’t understand your entire problem with it.

The death of Mufasa in the Lion King HAD a purpose- in fact it drove the whole plot. Ray’s death was just a way to get him to be with his beloved star, which honestly felt more like a running gag than something that HAD to be solved.

YMMV, let’s leave it at that.

That’s OK. Just for the record, I intended to see the movie again when it comes out in DVD, to see if my opinions hold on a second viewing. (Also, because I had to see the Spanish version, so I missed the voicework of the original actors. The songs translations didn’t sound that good, either, which is rare for a Disney film.)

I think the remark was actually specifically trying to insinuate that the movie was worse.

I don’t know if “offended” is the right word; I think she just thought it was a really bad movie, and association with it is a blight upon her city.

As for the voodoo thing, I guess it’s just not really so bad, then, if they have a good-and-evil representative. I still think it’s annoying when people who have (vcidently) done barely-looking-on-wikipedia level research into the subject decide Ghede will be the coolest and most original evil villain ever zomg! It’s like evil wizard Rasputin as a villain. It’s not really right, which would be acceptable if it weren’t also dull and lazy.