hoo-kay, first off, the adel/trabia thing was a JOKE, or an example.
As for Rinoa: holy crap, are you ignoring me? She goes from being a little childish to quietly going to her own doom. I think that’s a different from the beginning
And for that matter, you seem to be thinking that for there to be depth in a person, they have to completely change. I must be the most shallow person in the world because I’ve maintained a similar existance even if something in my life has changed.
Originally posted by Resh
Change isn’t all there is to character depth. The game shows a lot of different sides and layers to the characters. Cid’s desire to do the right thing and his frustration with NORG and the garden staff for perverting his dream, not to mention the courage it must have taken to order the death of his wife. Rinoa’s relationship with her father and the various things that led to the rift between them.
Yes but none of these things are SHOWN in the game is what Im arguing. We know nothing of the rift between Rinoa and her father and the death of her mother. Cid’s “desire” to do the right thing is not dwelt upon either. These things happen but we don’t SEE them happening, which is awkward for me because suddenly a character is like this, and like that, but virtually the same since we didn’t see the change.
Quistis’ feelings for Squall, and her blaming herself partially for Seifer.
What “feelings?” Obviously there was something in the beginning for Quistis over Squall, but these were neither drawn out nor acted upon, nor are they relatively important because they don’t shape the plot at all.
The many hidden layers of Squall.
Such as? I’m not necessarily argueing this obviously because I agree, but you;re not adding anything to back your words up.
Laguna’s bravery on the battlefield along with his fear and nervousness around women.
That’s personality, not any change or character growth. That just explains who Laguna is.
Irvine’s false bravado hiding his insecurities.
I agree there.
Zell’s finding out he was adopted (it’s clearly stated that he didn’t know).
That wasn’t even an important factor in the game. Like I said, we see next to nothing except a few dialogue sequences about what his homelife is like, but it seems comfortable, not traumatic at all which makes his discovery quite obselete and unimportant since it didnt have an impact on ANYTHING.
The main characters finding out about their lost childhoods, discovering that the GFs they depend on are responsible for the loss, and having the courage to go on using them even though it could mean losing more.
I agree there, and never denied that either.
That’s depth, the many layers on and below the characters’ surfaces. The things about them we find out as we get to know them. Change is part of it, but it’s not all there is. Maybe some of the characters didn’t change much during the course of the story, but they definitely had depth.
You see, most of those characters didnt HAVE surfaces. I stated numerous times that these characters didnt change or have an awe inspiring scene that fully impacting the game, excluding the orphanage scene. There is nothing to Zell other than what we’re presented with. What Im trying to say is there wasn’t rnough ROOM for these characters to develop and there’s very good reason to that, say things like, more important things like concentrating on storyline, graphics, or maybe cuz it’s just one of those kind of games.
If major character change is what you’re looking for, I can understand why you don’t like the characters in 8, but don’t dismiss everything else about them.
I never said I didnt like the characters. I loved everyone except Rinoa, they were all favorites of mine. But Im trying to argue in a nonbiased way. And yeah, Im comparing these characters to others in the series, that can be argued (maybe from FF4 and up). Im not dismissing anything, Im stating fact that they werent as developed as they could have been. And thats entirely truth, and not to blame, since there were many characters and it would have been impossible to expand on all the stuff you’re stating, which is why I dont buy your arguement that there was so much to FF8.
Originally posted by Pookie
As for Rinoa: holy crap, are you ignoring me? She goes from being a little childish to quietly going to her own doom. I think that’s a different from the beginning
No, Im telling you that Rinoa doesn’t change. her personality is still uber cutsy and childish, albeit a bit toned down, she’s still Rinoa-ish. You would think she would mature a little bit after what she’s been through, and she does a little bit, I admit, but the vibe is still there, you know? She can still pout, she’s still the damsel in distress, blah blah blah which makes her totally cliched to me since her character has been done a million times.
And for that matter, you seem to be thinking that for there to be depth in a person, they have to completely change. I must be the most shallow person in the world because I’ve maintained a similar existance even if something in my life has changed.
Mm no, I don’t think that. To have depth, they have to have more than a one tracked behavior system, something that adds mysterious and to a certain extent, unpredictability. We aren’t presented with anything new with characters like Quistis, Cid, Zell, and Selphie, sorry.
And don’t get personal. You wanted a debate, you you got it. It doesn’t matter if we’re both wrong, if you can’t back up your arguement, then you’re done.
Yes but none of these things are SHOWN in the game is what Im arguing. We know nothing of the rift between Rinoa and her father and the death of her mother. Cid’s “desire” to do the right thing is not dwelt upon either. These things happen but we don’t SEE them happening, which is awkward for me because suddenly a character is like this, and like that, but virtually the same since we didn’t see the change.
I thought you were arguing that “Everything was in your face; little was left to the imagination.” If that’s the case, what’s with all this stuff we don’t see? It’s not all shown up front, but it clearly happens and the effects are shown. We know Rinoa dislikes her father so much she only calls him “that man.” We know her mother, Julia Heartilly, died in a car accident when Rinoa four years old, and we know her father is either extremely protective of her or doesn’t want her meddling in his business, so much that he tries to lock her up in his mansion. What we don’t know is the exact nature of their relationship. That’s what’s left to the imagination. That’s what makes you think. That’s depth.
What “feelings?” Obviously there was something in the beginning for Quistis over Squall, but these were neither drawn out nor acted upon, nor are they relatively important because they don’t shape the plot at all.
Quistis clearly states during the ‘remembering’ scene at Trabia that she once had feelings for Squall. She thought she was in love, but later realized it was more of a ‘big sister’ kind of love. She doesn’t act upon them in the beginning because she’s an instructor and he’s a student, and when Rinoa comes into the picture, she pretty much gives up on it. She says all of this in the game. And so what if it doesn’t shape the plot. It gives the story depth. It would be boring if there was nothing in the story that didn’t directly relate to saving the world.
That’s personality, not any change or character growth. That just explains who Laguna is.
I know. That’s why I said it. My point was that not all character depth involves change. It also involves getting to know who the character is below the surface. Did you read my post?
That wasn’t even an important factor in the game. Like I said, we see next to nothing except a few dialogue sequences about what his homelife is like, but it seems comfortable, not traumatic at all which makes his discovery quite obselete and unimportant since it didnt have an impact on ANYTHING.
I never said there was anything traumatic about Zell’s life. But finding out you’re adopted has to be a major revalation. So it doesn’t spell out the exact effect the discovery has on him, that’s what I mean when I say below the surface.
I stated numerous times that these characters didnt change or have an awe inspiring scene that fully impacting the game, excluding the orphanage scene.
What about the scene where Squall rescues Rinoa from space, or the scene where he rescues her from the Sorceress Memorial, or the scene in the flower field?..
Im not dismissing anything, Im stating fact that they werent as developed as they could have been. And thats entirely truth, and not to blame, since there were many characters and it would have been impossible to expand on all the stuff you’re stating, which is why I dont buy your arguement that there was so much to FF8.
Once again, my point was that developing the characters and expanding on them are not the same thing. Not all of them change that much. Fine, but there’s still a lot of depth and detail to them. And it is all there in the story, it’s just not perfectly spelled out in big bold letters.
To have depth, they have to have more than a one tracked behavior system, something that adds mysterious and to a certain extent, unpredictability.
There’s plenty of mystery in some of these characters. Mystery about their past, about their relationships with other characters, about what they’re really thinking. As I’ve been saying, change is not all there is to depth. And there are quite a few times when they change. Rinoa does change after she becomes a sorceress. As you said, she’s toned down and a little more mature, but still “Rinoa-ish”. That’s because she’s still Rinoa. She’s a more somber version of Rinoa, but still the same person.
You wanted a debate, you you got it. It doesn’t matter if we’re both wrong, if you can’t back up your arguement, then you’re done.
You haven’t done much backing up yourself.
I know there’s some stuff in 8 that’s not great, but the characters are the best part of it. They may seem shallow and cliche at first glance, but you only need to look a little deeper to see that’s not true. Even if they don’t all go through major changes during the course of the story, there’s a lot of development in their backgrounds, and there are a lot of things revealed about them. That’s where the development in the game is, it’s in seeing new sides of the characters that you didn’t know about before. That’s where the depth is.
Once again, if you don’t like that there’s not much change in the characters, that’s fine, but don’t say they have no depth. There’s more to it than that.
Originally posted by Resh
I thought you were arguing that “Everything was in your face; little was left to the imagination.” If that’s the case, what’s with all this stuff we don’t see? It’s not all shown up front, but it clearly happens and the effects are shown. We know Rinoa dislikes her father so much she only calls him “that man.” We know her mother, Julia Heartilly, died in a car accident when Rinoa four years old, and we know her father is either extremely protective of her or doesn’t want her meddling in his business, so much that he tries to lock her up in his mansion. What we don’t know is the exact nature of their relationship. That’s what’s left to the imagination. That’s what makes you think. That’s depth.
The plot darling, not the characters. It doesn’t matter anyways because the character relationships weren’t drawn out that much either. I’m sorry, but thinking “I wonder why Rinoa’s father locked her up in a mansion?” is not as deep as “Omg, who broke into Shinra and left blood stains on the floor and masacred almost everyone?” or “I’m virtually the only one of my species left…I’m alone…I just want to find my place in this world, and to love.”
Quistis clearly states during the ‘remembering’ scene at Trabia that she once had feelings for Squall. She thought she was in love, but later realized it was more of a ‘big sister’ kind of love. She doesn’t act upon them in the beginning because she’s an instructor and he’s a student, and when Rinoa comes into the picture, she pretty much gives up on it. She says all of this in the game. And so what if it doesn’t shape the plot. It gives the story depth. It would be boring if there was nothing in the story that didn’t directly relate to saving the world.
And again I say “what feelings?” They were only called upon twice during the game, and hardly enough to have consequences. Quistis isn’t exactly the amazing poster girl for unrequited love. Her feelings were just “there” and because of her nature, she wouldn’t have said anything anyways, it seems.
[QUOTE]I know. That’s why I said it. My point was that not all character depth involves change. It also involves getting to know who the character is below the surface. Did you read my post?
Yes I have, but I’ve also played the game, and sorry, I cannot make the connection.
I never said there was anything traumatic about Zell’s life. But finding out you’re adopted has to be a major revalation. So it doesn’t spell out the exact effect the discovery has on him, that’s what I mean when I say below the surface.
But in order to know what’s going on below the surface, a little plot developement might be nice, instead of one or two minor scenes. As I’ve said before, this is through no fault of its own-there are simply too many characters and past histories that we vaguely know of to dwell upon…other games have done it, I guess, but FF8 was one of the lighter and less complicated plots of the series, so maybe this was all intentionally.
This is what I meant by in your face comment. You know everything that’s going on, but what you don’t know is…the things the you don’t see (which technically don’t exist in the game) Comprende?
What about the scene where Squall rescues Rinoa from space, or the scene where he rescues her from the Sorceress Memorial, or the scene in the flower field?..
Oops, I totally missed those. They all involve Squall, don’t they? Yes they do.
Once again, my point was that developing the characters and expanding on them are not the same thing. Not all of them change that much. Fine, but there’s still a lot of depth and detail to them. And it is all there in the story, it’s just not perfectly spelled out in big bold letters.
I wouldn’t say so. I wouldn’t even say there’s a lot of depth. I’ve stated that I’m comparing to other games, and no, there’s not as much depth as you’re implying. FF 8 has a really great story, but it leaves the characters 2 dimensional, except for a few. Developing and expanding on them can be looked at the same way because they serve the same purpose.
There’s plenty of mystery in some of these characters. Mystery about their past, about their relationships with other characters, about what they’re really thinking. As I’ve been saying, change is not all there is to depth. And there are quite a few times when they change. Rinoa does change after she becomes a sorceress. As you said, she’s toned down and a little more mature, but still “Rinoa-ish”. That’s because she’s still Rinoa. She’s a more somber version of Rinoa, but still the same person.
Yes, but what Ive been saying is that this mystery makes people uncaring. It’s cliched mystery that’s been done in plenty of other games (probably better, too) not to mention novels, and movies and anything you can think of. Oh so Zell just suddenly realized he was adopted and thinks what his life would have been like if he had known he was all along. Ooooh, that’s mystery. Rinoa calls her father that man…well now, hmm, I believe any idiot can figure that out, but what a mystery to comprehend if they don’t…hmm yes indeed. I believe this is called final fantasy 8, not Days of our Lives.
I never acknowledged a huge change in Rinoa. After she’s freed, she’s still sitting on the sidelines with nothing useful to offer but to be Squall’s little barbie doll.
You haven’t done much backing up yourself.
That’s completely laughable, since I’ve constantly provided explanations as to what I was saying, and examples. You are only starting to do the same. I commend you for it.
I know there’s some stuff in 8 that’s not great, but the characters are the best part of it. They may seem shallow and cliche at first glance, but you only need to look a little deeper to see that’s not true. Even if they don’t all go through major changes during the course of the story, there’s a lot of development in their backgrounds, and there are a lot of things revealed about them. That’s where the development in the game is, it’s in seeing new sides of the characters that you didn’t know about before. That’s where the depth is.
Ah you know, after reading that I realize you’re right, in the background part. There WAS a lot of developement in their history and their background. Totally right. But to further my arguement, hardly any of this factors into who they are at present times-like it’s as if nothing was ever discussed or nothing ever happens. That’s what I mean. I wont deny that there was little background character developement, but the impacts, are zero to none, it seems.
Once again, if you don’t like that there’s not much change in the characters, that’s fine, but don’t say they have no depth. There’s more to it than that.
Like I said, FF8 is a light and fluffy game compared to other FF’s. The “depth” here is laughable when it goes up against 6, 7, and dare I say 10 (from what I read)…maybe even 9, though it’s been awhile since I have played that. But I seem to recall enough to venture to say that even FF9 topped FF8 for depth and intruige.
I would actually venture to say that FF9 is one of the more thought-provoking games in the series. FF6 and 7 are more of the “cool anime!” type of deep. FF9 and 10 are really more laid-back and give you much more characterization and more interest in thinking about their very unique situations. The people are far more realistic.
My thoughts on FF8, by the way… I thought the characters were also fairly realistic, and the story wasn’t bad - the first time through. I just couldn’t bring myself to finish it again, because I was just so damn BORED.
Evangelion, this argument isn’t going anywhere. You’re still saying there’s no depth to the story, and I’m telling you you’re just not seeing it. Let’s just agree that some people got more out of the game than others.
I agree with Resh. It just seems like everyone got a different level out of the game.
Originally posted by Resh
Evangelion, this argument isn’t going anywhere. You’re still saying there’s no depth to the story, and I’m telling you you’re just not seeing it. Let’s just agree that some people got more out of the game than others.
Im sorry, but I dont base a game on hype, and I have played games that puts FF8 to shame in depth. So our definitions are obviously different.
When did we ever mention hype? I wasn’t even aware of any ff8 hype until long after I had played it. I like it because of what I saw in it, not because of any hype. I accept that we have different ideas of character depth and what makes a game good, but don’t make baseless assumptions like that. I’m getting tired of this argument, and we’re obviously not going to agree on this. We each saw different levels of depth in the game. Let’s just leave it at that.
I think Rinoa does show some character development. I personally believe that Rinoa, like Squall, almost hides behind a facade, in her case her cheerfullness and exhuberance. There are occasions when she certainly seems more mature and calm, like in the scene in the waiting room inside Galbadia Garden. When talking about Seifer, I think her personality changes slightly, almost as if she’s let her guard down. It wouldn’t be unusual for someone in her position to be very guarded with her true feelings, what with not having a mother and being estranged from her father.
I know a lot of people who have a problem with her trying to give Edea the Odine bangle at the end of disc one, saying how childish she is. I don’t really see it like that, I just see somebody who is desperate to prove that they can make it on their own, probably to prove a point to her father.
And there is certainly a difference in her character when she leaves for the Sorceress Memorial, she’s far more subdued, and really, she seems to stay that way for the rest of the game.
I know people will disagree with this, it’s only my personal opinion after all, but I do think Rinoa gets too much of a hard time.
gives Angel of the Lion a cookie
Originally posted by Resh
When did we ever mention hype? I wasn’t even aware of any ff8 hype until long after I had played it.
On that note, I’m so bummed out that I got interested in the game by one commercial and a whim…I LOVE hype. Hype gives you crazy things like Spidey-berry cereal and Final Fantasy lighters…and I missed out. Not getting the preorder alone gets me sick to my stomach… : (
Originally posted by Resh
When did we ever mention hype? I wasn’t even aware of any ff8 hype until long after I had played it. I like it because of what I saw in it, not because of any hype. I accept that we have different ideas of character depth and what makes a game good, but don’t make baseless assumptions like that. I’m getting tired of this argument, and we’re obviously not going to agree on this. We each saw different levels of depth in the game. Let’s just leave it at that.
dude where did I ever accuse you of playing games because of hype.
Stop taking things so seriously. If you’re flustered after a little online debate then yeah like you shouldn’t get into it so much
Im sorry, but I dont base a game on hype,
That just kinda came out of nowhere, so it sounded like you were directing it either at me or at players of 8 in general. Sorry if I misread you.
Nah I was just saying that to clarify where I was coming from >>
Originally posted by Evangelion
You know everything that’s going on, but what you don’t know is…the things the you don’t see (which technically don’t exist in the game) Comprende?
and…
There WAS a lot of developement in their history and their background. Totally right. But to further my arguement, hardly any of this factors into who they are at present times-like it’s as if nothing was ever discussed or nothing ever happens. That’s what I mean. I wont deny that there was little background character developement, but the impacts, are zero to none, it seems.
These are our main points of disagreement, as I see them. The things that are in the background or are not fully shown. You think these are unimportant or have little impact on what happens, where I think they add a lot of depth to the story and characters. That’s really all there is to it.
I also refer you to the posts made by AngelOfTheLion, who has explained things a lot better than I could.
Well I think it’s safe to say we’ve learned a few things today: Everyone gets different things out of a game. FF8 had good and bad points, and like all things, some people simply liked it more than others.
I suppose I should have gone into this thread thinking that, but I’m glad I got all the arguing out of my system…for the moment.
Anywho, I’d like to personally thank AngelOfTheLion for all the excellent comments that out-did all the wording on mine shakes her fist
YOR AL STUPI DFF8 IZ TEH BST GMIA E?VRT!!!1111111111111
That’s it. Im not living in your robes anymore.
Hades, dont make me use my 1337 mind control on you and make you slice open your own belly with a butter knife that was sharpened by a grinder in someones garage that dont know what the hell their doing because they never learned and dont know shit about how to put a good edge on a weapon… i’m warning you !! but i agree, we are all stupid and FF8 is the best game ever.