ahem
i don’t see how this message board is needed for your survival, therfore by your definition it must be a form of joy, or pleasure which is uneccesary, for you so you claim. for that matter what are you doing on a role playing GAME website anyway? is someone holding a gun to your head threatening to kill you if you don’t? its one thing to preach about your philosophy, but you’re breaking it by posting on this very board.
go away.
To play off what nin is saying: can anyone remember any religious sect that thought all forms of pleasure was bad? Anyway, let’s go on and talk about pleasure. Why does masturbation induce pleasure? Because it simulates sex. Why does sex produce pleasure, beacuse its supposed to in order to motivate people to reproduce (NOT SURVIVE THEMSELVES, but allow the species to survive). So any behavior which is related to allowing an individual to survive or the species to survive is good (unselfish), however, what if these behaviors provide an individual with pleasure they’re supposed to be bad(selfish). Have you ever thought that perhaps in life past, such situations might’ve occured and thus certain traits that allow for social behavior would be selected for and similarly, become pleasurable because, like sex, pleasure helps motivate people to do things? There is difference between the proximal causation of an action (pleasure) and the ultimate causation (helping the species survive). While masturbation doesn’t help anyone but yourself, it is related to sex which is a necessary part to life.
“It’s been proven that intense desire to masturbate can be due to psychological damage, so it’s at least partially psychological”
Masturbation arises out of the desire to have sex. The desire to have sex is a gentically based trait because we have systems that are designed to affect our perception. Sex hormones flow through our veins to influence the development of certain structures and to promote certain behaviors. How else can I show that the entire need to have sex is based on interactions between genes which results in interactions between cells? Evolution by natural selection occurs if 3 conditions are met: phenotype varies (there’s nothing to select for or against if 1 thing isn’t selected more for or more against than another thing), this phenotype (ie trait) must have an effect on survivorship and fecundity (the amount of kids you have) and finally this trait must be heritable (ie genetically based because that’s the only thing you pass on to your offspring). Individuals that have sex have more kids and those that have more kids have occupy a greater percentage of the gene pool and those that occupy a greater percentage of the gene pool will have a greater chance of meeting individuals carrying similar genes that makes them want to have sex and thus have more kids. So on and so forth and we have a population of organisms that likes to have sex because the individuals before them that liked to have sex outmated the ones that didn’t. If you have a trait that doesn’t make you want to have sex, then you might live, but you will not pass on that trait, thus your trait will not be found in the next generation. It will have been selected against. Evolution is not survival of the fittest. Evolution is differential reproduction. Because these traits are so widely distributed, the only logical possibility is that these traits were selected for.
I know how genes work, and you’re beginning to sound repetitious. I know we all have sexual desires and I am okay with people having sex. A strong sex drive is okay too. My point is self restraint. Sex is okay, but masturbation isn’t. Masturbation does not cause reproduction. And people who don’t masturbate don’t necessariliy have a weak sex drive.
“It’s been proven that intense desire to masturbate can be due to psychological damage, so it’s at least partially psychological”
Nothing is proven in science. Who says masturbation arises from psychological damage? Does that mean that the billions of people that masturbate have damage? How would this same damage occur to billions of people in drastically different environmets? Yes behavior is obviously psychological because you consciously choose to do something. Why you choose to do something might have reasons like why it feels good. Masturbation is you being part of that cycle of the need for sex and dealing with that need so you can get some relief which has evolved to motivate you to keep doing it. Same reason people do drugs. Neurotransmitters go off, you get a slight buzzed and the great thing about masturbating is that you can think rationally again. Its not because people don’t get the oppurtunity to have sex, like a lot of people around here (:P) that they won’t have the desire to have sex.
True, nothing in science is technically proven, but we are lead to believe this through logic. Also, I would like to point out the key word “can”.
And once again, nature is pure and innocent. Nothing is crueler than nature.
Sorry, typo. The second sentence kinda suggests this.
You’ll have to elaborate how I have no emotions and how I justify genocide.
I never said you were capable of genocide. I just pointed out the similiarity between you and Hitler using survival as an excuse. Hitler was an extreme example of how this thinking can be evil. I never said you were evil, just coming surprisingly close. Lack of emotions, obviously not true, because you are getting pissed. Your use of cold hard logic is what’s truly scary. Logic and emotions don’t mix. If I had to choose one or the other, I would go with emotions. Logic has done wonders for our society and I use it, so I guess this is just really a reflection of my self hatred. My beef isn’t with you, it’s with emotionless logic. With just logic, we’re like robots, not humans. People need morals more than logic. I said “Do emotions mean nothing to you?” because you try to justify an immoral act with logic.
I already said that its not because you have a gene that you’ll be acting on that gene. I’ve already said that a single gene will not have you behave a certain way but that interactions of genes will have certain results. Its not because Hitler went off on social evolution, which is a disproven off shoot of social science, that evolution is bad. The way things are used is bad or good. The things themselves are not bad or good. If anything possibily relating to Nazis wasn’t used, we would disallow religious beliefs and the germ theory of disease because they thought jews were a disease. We should also, along the same lines, denounce things done by the opposite political spectra, the Marxists, who also caused millions of deaths after world war 2. The Marxists believed that we were all products of society and did a lot of fucked up shit in regards to that. Cut the bullshit. Support your argument.
Excellent point. My point is that using only logic is a bad thing. Your response lead me to believe you were a pure logical person. Comparing you to Hitler was just a warning (though I admit Hitler was a little nuts, so it’s more like warped logic). It’s true I believe society does play a major role in who we are, but I will not deny the genetic factor. Marxist’s were also atheists, suggesting the possibility of lack of morals. Clearly, I have morals. I do not use our being shaped by society as an excuse to commit evil. Marxists were also cold, logical thinkers, which kinda goes against my whole outlook on life.
And next Mazrim, the Great Mediator.
Just because the need for sexual gratificaton is partly psychological, and thus it can be mentally engineered (brainwashed) out of you, does that mean it should be done? There are cults that brainwash people to have complete reverence for the leader, who then tells them all to commit suicide (true story). I’m not convinced. I…think sexual desires get in the way of other things which are much more important, but I also think that the way to overcome desire is not to quash it down, because it’ll always keep springing back up hatefully. Hating something gives it as much power as openly endorsing it, that’s why you gotta find a way to accept your desire to masturbate emotionlessly (because it’s not an emotional thing), and only then will your mind be free from the potentially harmful effects of sexual desire (because they do exist, I agree with you on that) - since they just won’t affect your mind.
I suppose emotionless masturbation is okay, seeing as my beef is with deriving pleasure from it.
That’s a Buddhist way of looking at it anyways, and one which seems a lot more true than the Puritan way which I’ve totally become accustomed to, which basically says that if you quash all self-pleasuring actions, that you’ll automatically quench your desire as well. But that’s not true - they’re still there. They’ll always still be there, only they’ll resurface as like, psychological problems down the line. Read Nathaniel Hawthorne’s The Scarlet Letter - that’s what that book is all about. Plus it’s just a really excellent work of literature.
Firstly, saying your beliefs is truer than other’s seems a bit vain to me. Secondly, there’s a difference between supressing your sexual desires and restraining them. Once again, sex can be okay, meaning it’s okay to have sexual desires. My beef is with beating your meat all the time to derive pleasure. And the Scarlet Letter, it sucked. I’m not a big Hawthorne fan, in fact I think he is by far the worst Dark Romantic when compared to such writers as Poe and Melville. Yeah, I like Dark Romanticism, because I believe some people are just plain evil. Most people, however, are just misguided.
“It’s been proven that intense desire to masturbate can be due to psychological damage, so it’s at least partially psychological”
By who? What was the study? What was the study based on? How did they reach their conclusions? Any behavior is psychology. Duh. Moving on.
“I know how genes work, and you’re beginning to sound repetitious. I know we all have sexual desires and I am okay with people having sex. A strong sex drive is okay too. My point is self restraint. Sex is okay, but masturbation isn’t. Masturbation does not cause reproduction. And people who don’t masturbate don’t necessariliy have a weak sex drive.”
I’m not talking about how genes work but about evolution and why you observe a trait and how these traits are related. I made a few posts about that and these are claims you have not responded to.
“I never said you were capable of genocide. I just pointed out the similiarity between you and Hitler using survival as an excuse. Hitler was an extreme example of how this thinking can be evil. I never said you were evil, just coming surprisingly close. Lack of emotions, obviously not true, because you are getting pissed. Your use of cold hard logic is what’s truly scary. Logic and emotions don’t mix. If I had to choose one or the other, I would go with emotions. Logic has done wonders for our society and I use it, so I guess this is just really a reflection of my self hatred. My beef isn’t with you, it’s with emotionless logic. With just logic, we’re like robots, not humans. People need morals more than logic. I said “Do emotions mean nothing to you?” because you try to justify an immoral act with logic.”
1-You can’t condemn people for believing in heavily supported facts that other people have misused. The misuse of these facts isn’t the fault of the fact and if they are misused, then in reality, the facts aren’t being used, but someone’s opinion is selectively picking facts while ignoring those that will counteir their belief.
2-How have I shown a lack of emotion? I think Astral can show I’m quite emotional IRL :P.
3-Logic doesn’t mix with emotion because logic and emotion do not occupy the same domain except in the case that people want to use emotion to justify something.
4-Explanation is not exculpation. Its not because you can explain why something happens (why someone is a murderer if you can do that) that it is right for that person to have been a murderer.
5-Being able to explain how something works doesn’t mean its bad :P.
6-I never used survival as an excuse for anything either. In fact, I advocated against talking about survival, which in fact has little do with anything, especially not Hitler. You should probably re read what I said as I already mentionned about how you skipped the points on evolution.
Things aren’t as black and white as you like to think.
“Excellent point. My point is that using only logic is a bad thing. Your response lead me to believe you were a pure logical person. Comparing you to Hitler was just a warning (though I admit Hitler was a little nuts, so it’s more like warped logic). It’s true I believe society does play a major role in who we are, but I will not deny the genetic factor. Marxist’s were also atheists, suggesting the possibility of lack of morals. Clearly, I have morals. I do not use our being shaped by society as an excuse to commit evil. Marxists were also cold, logical thinkers, which kinda goes against my whole outlook on life.”
I speak logically because I speak of a scientific topic, which has nothing to do with hand waving arguments about emotions and beliefs, but about facts. I have pretty solid training in that department. Its not because I make a logical and concrete argument that I am a person that can commit evil. You have no basis to say that I , as a person, have no morals because I can think logically because they are completely unrelated topics. I haven’t shown myself to be immoral, evil or prone to commit evil deeds. People can use morals the same way they can use religion to justify evil actions. What is good and what is bad morally is an interpretation, a perception, which varies between people and cultures and there are people that use those as excuses to commit bad deeds. Therefore your stance against my Hitlerian logic , which wasn’t logical (either him or your stance) falls apart as you are the same as someone who commits wrongs because its morally ok to do so, according to your reasoning.
Ok correct me if I misread your post, but you’re comparing him to Hitler because he uses cold emotionless logic to justify immoral acts? No, just…no. Hitler played on peoples emotions, I’m not familiar with his exact methods, but I believe he incited pride in being the master race, provided an scapegoat in the form of the Jews, and appealed to peoples patriotism. Hitler did the exact opposite of what you propose.
Masturbation is IMMORAL? But… emotionless masturbation isn’t? So… you have a problem with pleasure? And I mean, c’mon… emotionless masturbation? That doesn’t exist. 
Then you go on to say that atheists are more than likely “without morals,” but that putting one’s beliefs above others is “vain.” Quite contradictory, aren’t we?
Did you start out as some type of science major and then fall back to psychology when you couldn’t cut it? ;p
And yeah, contrary to your beliefs, Sin has a wide range of emotions, including a large capacity for love, so that avenue has been barricaded. Personally, I think your “emotions over logic” belief is somewhat disturbing… Emotions have a tendency to cloud judgment, which in turn clouds fair and impartial decisions, which in turns screws everybody over who doesn’t share the same emotional response as you.
Well, “pleasure” doesn’t only have to be emotional - in fact, my point in my first post in this thread was that masturbation isn’t emotionally pleasing - it’s just, sexual pleasure which is entirely different.
By “truer,” I mean, my thoughts feel more in tune with my emotions and my being with one set of beliefs than with another. As for “beating your meat,” well, what if there are no women around who want to have sex with you? It seems like that’s just…it puts you in a quandary. Cause you have this reptilian drive to sex something up, but all you have is your hand. What are you supposed to do? Wait until you find a girl? That could take YEARS.
And aight, you didn’t like The Scarlet Letter, okay. Whatever. I liked it.
Morals are indeed perception, so evidence fails in the matter of explaining them. What I deem as evidence you might see differently, and vice versa. I never said you had to agree with me, and I respect you for your difference in opinion. I wish you could see things as I do, but I don’t know how to make you. This will be my final reply, I’m going to bed.
By who? What was the study? What was the study based on? How did they reach their conclusions? Any behavior is psychology. Duh. Moving on.
I read it in a medical book actually. It talked about how when people masturbate a lot it is unhealthy and is usually a sign of mental distress.
I speak logically because I speak of a scientific topic, which has nothing to do with hand waving arguments about emotions and beliefs, but about facts.
An argument is formed when two people try to prove their opinion and disprove their opponent’s opinion. An opinion is technically a belief.
What is good and what is bad morally is an interpretation, a perception, which varies between people and cultures and there are people that use those as excuses to commit bad deeds.
Ditto.
You have no basis to say that I , as a person, have no morals because I can think logically because they are completely unrelated topics.
Once again you misunderstood me. I merely said you initially sounded like a someone using merely logic and you are. I just said only using logic can be a bad thing, because without emotions and morals, logic, which is all a matter of perception, can lead to cruel actions. It’s as if a robot justified wiping out the human race. I know you have emotions (in fact, I recall saying that). Maybe if I repeat myself ten million times you will pay closer attention and not forget. Your morals I question based on my perception of right and wrong.
Quite contradictory, aren’t we?
Yes, “we” can be. There are two sides to everyone, even I have a dark side. Right now, my good side is dominating, hence the whole moral crap. On bad days, I can rant on for hours about how everyone should die. Hence the noticible contradiction, I’m two extremes all in one.
Its not cuz its in a book that its true :P. Just like you shouldn’t believe everything you see on tv. And in some cases, if someone masturbates as a sign of distress, it doesn’t mean that the billions of other people masturbating are also distressed. They’re just doing it to relieve themselves.
An opinion is a belief, but a belief that is based on facts is more solid than a belief that relies on half-assed hand waving arguments.
You say only using logic is bad and therefore because in your extremely limited experience interacting with me I was logical in a scientific argument, which is to be expected, you make statements that I am a bad person or can potentially be a bad person, which is based on a lot more traits that you have not observed because I have not displayed them. Its not about me misinterpreting what you’re saying but you making invalid, unsupported and hypocritical statements about other people’s potential lack of morals when you yourself make statements that one shouldn’t judge other people’s morals. I already answered your claim about logic being used for bad purposes and so did CH. Firstly, explanation is not exculpation (maybe you don’t understand the terms, its not because you can explain why something happened that it makes it right) and secondly, logical behavior doesn’t equate to cruel actions, especially since cruel actions can be done for other reasons that logical behavior. Your argument is flawed. Morals have nothing to do with emotions or logic.
Yo Sin. I bet the reason you’re not reaching the dude is because he doesn’t think of masturbation in a scientific sense. Hence, you were talking to him using logic, whereas he thinks of masturbation in more of a moral sense, so naturally, you weren’t going to get through. You know? Just my two cents…
His entire argument is flawed and most likely based on his admitted self-inadequacy, not morals. The irony is that there are people who would state that the reason he says people who masturbate have a problem is most likely because he has a problem he doesn’t want to face because that might have to reinforce self-hate.
I shot him down on the moral side as well as in the science, but differently than how you did it.
“I read it in a medical book actually. It talked about how when people masturbate a lot it is unhealthy and is usually a sign of mental distress.”
Alot of anything is unhealthy. 
If we want to bring a psychological aspect into this, we could say that you are displacing your feelings of sexual frustration and inadequacy onto other people and this is the reason you claim masturbation is a “disorder.” And thus you’re free to go about your life looking at other people as if they have the “problems.”
Why thank you 
Maybe a little too much makeup, but I like it anyway.
Also hadey- how can you state that Tacos aren’t sexual? Tacos are like, supersexual!
I just said only using logic can be a bad thing, because without emotions and morals, logic, which is all a matter of perception, can lead to cruel actions.
What about emotions, let’s say hate without morals or logic? Or your own definition of “morals” without logic or emotion? => Extremism either way. Thus, a balance is needed- like everywhere in life.
“There is no such thing as poison, there are only overdoses” (or something along those lines) is a very, very true statement. With a good balance of everything you should be fine. If you’re obsessed with your “good” side, I wouldnt say thats a good thing either
Never thought I would be sitting here commenting on the ethics and advocacies of porn, but here i am.
So how do I feel about it? Porn is not necessarily a good thing becauase it is commercial and is an industry that does exploit “sex” and many acts of “perversion.” But, the discussion of sex and masturbation should be addressed in a different manner altogether.
Sex is not bad. But I do believe that it should be practiced in moderation and people should not be too “loose” (as in having many sexual partners at same time). Sinistral made a very valid and ingenious point by demonstrating and explicating the reasons why “sex” is good and neccessary for a populating society. So therefore there is no need to go into that. You can just scroll back to see his comments.
Masturbation does not seem to serve any purpose directly, but it is a function that many individuals have performed whether voluntarily or not - in their life. It is quite natural in that it is a release of “tension” and there is also “pleasure” involved … but I don’t see how that can be wrong. Doing drugs, drinking, smoking - those things are wrong…masturbation (though it is gross…ewww) it isn’t wrong…just a bodily function - I guess kinda like urination …maybe lol.
The last thing I wanted to address is what Tuba had to say about Sinistral. Actually, I am not surpirsed that you, Tuba, would try to make such a flimsy and illogical reference that Sinistral is borderline " Hitler-ish." Most of your arguments have been confusing, contradictory at times, and overall unconvincing because your points go off on wayward tangents. (Is it just me , but what the hell does “nature being innocent…” and “nothing can be crueler than nature” have to do with sex and masturbation?!)
You try to argue and make Sinistral seem like he was emotionless…but I think you are bias and very wrong in that aspect. Sinistral was bringing forth many GOOD arguments that were NOT rooted in JUST “philosophical beliefs,” but are rational and from an objective point of view which is appropriate since this subject is very “touchy” and can be lead off in the wrong track if taken personally. If Sinistral were “emotionless” or pissed off…I am sure he would not take the time to respond and enlighten you about your misunderstandings.
The problem here is NOT “Sinistral’s lack of emotion and logic”, but maybe too much emotion and irrationality (on your part).
PS
It seems that many others do not agree with you either…sorrieeeeeeee
Hitler used logic to justify the slaughter? What are you smoking? I mean seriously dude, that must have been some damn fine “logic”. What you have just said is that there is a provable and obvious proof for the elimination of the jews by the aryan race. Im assuming that that statement of yours was made simply due to your argueing from ignorance.
I do not use our being shaped by society as an excuse to commit evil. Marxists were also cold, logical thinkers, which kinda goes against my whole outlook on life.
What of the child who is a soldier for some 3rd world country? He kills and may never feel remorse nor sadness. Why? He has known no other life. Is he evil? Is he worthy of death? Do you say he has no excuse? A man’s actions can only be based on what experiences he has had. Do not dare to take your sheltered, huddled, protected little existance to mean you are any better than any other human being on this planet.
Firstly, saying your beliefs is truer than other’s seems a bit vain to me. Secondly, there’s a difference between supressing your sexual desires and restraining them. Once again, sex can be okay, meaning it’s okay to have sexual desires. My beef is with beating your meat all the time to derive pleasure.
As one with such highly held morals, you of all people should know what it feels like to think you are higher than others. Secondly, each person has the ultimate truth, the universe is after all perception. Thirdly, if you actually knew Maz, you would realise that you have just said the stupidest thing in this whole topic, well done, you have won the medal a total of 16 times so far! Maz has no belief in his own superiority, he is activly trying to understand the world around him, which is more than I can say for your close minded philosophies.
sup·press ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-prs)
tr.v. sup·pressed, sup·press·ing, sup·press·es
To put an end to forcibly; subdue.
To curtail or prohibit the activities of.
To keep from being revealed, published, or circulated.
To deliberately exclude (unacceptable desires or thoughts) from the mind.
To inhibit the expression of (an impulse, for example); check: suppress a smile.
To reduce the incidence or severity of (a hemorrhage or cough, for example); arrest.
re·strain ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-strn)
tr.v. re·strained, re·strain·ing, re·strains
To hold back or keep in check; control: couldn’t restrain the tears.
To hold (a person) back; prevent: restrained them from going.
To deprive of freedom or liberty.
To limit or restrict.
Im not quite sure what the difference between the two synonyms are, perhaps you could refresh my memory?
Beating the meat all the time to derive sexual pleasure huh?
Thats an awfully interesting way to put it. I mean, its such a very harmful and inherently EVIL thing to do. i mean, think of all the victims of masturbation why there is the tissues and the hand cream and the hand itself and then there is the poor innocent sperm whose life is so tragically cut short by the evil ones… why, I can see why its so evil. I mean, look at all those people that are hurt by it, I can count those who suffer on the fingers of no hand.
Most people, however, are just misguided.
Couldnt have said it better myself
I’m having trouble understanding what your reason is for believing that premarital sex is bad, TubaMute. If its because you think that it won’t get you into Heaven, that’s fine. But you need to admit that.
o_o; There goes Shalc, defending porn and masturbating with hands and feet (literally?) to the bitter end 
I personally dislike porn, as it renders a person an object for lust instead of a human being. I also think that if you have a girlfriend/boyfriend, you shouldn’t need to look at other people - or something isn’t right in your relationship. My philosophy is that you should damn well be true to your partner and not drool over others.
As for the argument: Tuba, it really was tasteless to put Sin beside Hitler no matter which point you tried to make; nobody should be compared to Hitler. Ever.
Just because someone doesn’t practice your religion or doesn’t have a religion doesn’t mean that they lack morals; Christianity didn’t invent morals.
Actually, that could be seen as a pluspoint for porn… if you let out all your lusty nastyness on a pornmovie, at least you won’t look at your partner through the wrong eyes <.<; Or don’t keep mixing your true feelings with lust at that matter.
Anyway. Get your appetite elsewhere, eat at home. If you see porn as an “inspiration” even- why not? it could always be used to spice up your love life…