Modern wordsmiths

The Core RPGC Main Forum
1

Sorry, I have to share this. :sunglasses:

I’m a huge fan of Barenaked Ladies. I’ve been listening to them since way back in the Gordon days and marked their progress as songwriters. When I bought “Everything to Everyone” I knew it was something special.

Let’s put something on the table: I am a very “active” music listener. I need to hear everything, and especially the lyrics. Some songs which might have been quite nice have been ruined by terrible lyrics for me. In “Everything to Everyone” I really saw their talent in the songwriting field. They rhymed three or four lines together rather than the standard two, and used unusual, large words (the one that sticks in my mind is rhyming “humanity”, “insanity”, and “profanity” in the same stanza, in War On Drugs. I also loved the fact that every track had an entirely different message and subject matter, and were about interesting, offbeat things rather than trite discussions on their relationships.

But then I heard a track from their holiday album, called Elf’s Lament. This is on a whole other scale. There are at least three rhyming schemes going on at once (practically every second word rhymes with something), often two words are combined to rhyme with one, the words all make sense, and they’re really funny to boot. The only other time a piece of music struck me like that was Smash Mouth’s Walking on the Sun, and that frankly made no sense to me. Before that, the only other work I encountered like it was Edgar Allen Poe’s The Raven.

BNL truly are wordsmiths, in the literal meaning of the term. I’d love to hear if you know of any other bands that have anything approaching this sort of talent. Here’s the lyrics to Elf’s Lament (though it’s tough to really appreciate it without hearing the stresses from the music).

I’m a man of reason, and they say “'Tis the season to be jolly”
But it’s folly when you volley for position

Never in existence has there been such a resistance
To ideas meant to free us
If you could see us, then you’d listen

Toiling through the ages, making toys on garnished wages
There’s no union
We’re only through when we outdo the competition

I make toys, but I’ve got aspirations
Make some noise
Use your imagination
Girls and boys, before you wish for what you wish for
There’s a list for who’s been
Naughty or nice, but consider the price to an elf

A full indentured servitude can reflect on one’s attitude
But that silly red hat just makes the fat man look outrageous

Absurd though it may seem, you know, I’ve heard there’s even been illegal doping
And though we’re coping, I just hope it’s not contagious

You try to start a movement, and you think you see improvement
But when thrown into the moment, we just don’t seem so courageous

I make toys, but I’ve got aspirations
Make some noise
Use your imagination
Girls and boys, before you wish for what you wish for
There’s a list for who’s been
Naughty or nice, but consider the price to an elf

You look at yourself
You’re an elf
And the shelf is just filled with disappointing memories
Trends come and go, and your friends wanna know why you aren’t just happy making
crappy little gizmos
Every kid knows they’ll just throw this stuff away

We’re used to repetition, so we drew up a petition
We, the undersigned, feel undermined
Let’s redefine “employment”

We know that we’ve got leverage, so we’ll hand the fat man a beverage
And sit back while we attack the utter lack of our enjoyment

It may be tough to swallow, but our threats are far from hollow
He may thunder, but if he blunders, he may wonder where the toys went

I make toys, but I’ve got aspirations
Make some noise
Use your imagination
Girls and boys, before you wish for what you wish for
There’s a list for who’s been
Naughty or nice, but consider the price
Naughty or nice, but consider the price
Naughty or nice, but consider the price to an elf.

2

I glanced over Leonard Cohen’s Book of Longing. I remember shorter verses (so not so much potential for internal rhyming) but you may want to give it a try. Philip Glass recently put it into music and I suppose you could check Cohen’s other stuff (iff you like the music).

The other usual example for “music is poetry!” is (Bob) Dylan but he’s rather hit or miss with his gazillion songs. He has lyrics on his website and half his songs are on a blog or other, somewhere.

If I remember a more personal example than the two poster boys, I’ll post it.

3

Theres a lot of these kind of rhyme schemes in rap music. A lot.

4

Sorry… “rap” and “music” don’t seem to belong in the same sentence for me.

5

Oh, sorry - I was trying to add something your thread since no one else wanted to. But I wasn’t aware it was invite only - sooooorry!

Thats pretty backwards of you, considering your thread is about exactly what rap does every day, every song. Pathetic.

6

Yes, except that I was discussing music, not poetry set to a beat.

I never said you weren’t allowed to comment, just that I don’t feel your comment applies to me personally.

7

Alright alright, back up the truck, beep beep beep, how the hell is rap not music? Does that mean GREGORIAN CHANT is not music because it’s just vocals? Or how about some electronica? Where do you draw the line on what is music and what is not? I find it hard to believe that someone can not admit that rap is a style of music, regardless of their personal feelings towards it, in this day and age.

8

What you’re describing is just internal rhyming. It’s nothing new or rare. I hear fewer songs without it than with, especially in pop songs like the BNL write.

And what the fuck? Rap isn’t music? Why does that even matter? The title of this thread is “modern wordsmiths,” not “modern lyricists who happen to sing from their diaphragm all pretty-like”

For the record, I think anything that involves expressing yourself with sound in a time-structured way is music.

And also for the record, have you even heard BNL vocals? They’re far closer to rapping than they are to singing.

9

That’s sort of an uneducated statement. While it’s true that there’s a lot of rap music that just vamps (repeats sections) their music over and over again, it’s no different from rock music in that regard. Take four or five chords, play them in a logical progression, and do it over again. Rap is hardly different from that.

If your beef is with the music,

  1. That doesn’t appear to be the point of your thread, which is called “Modern Wordsmiths”, asking for bands who do cool stuff with their lyrics, not with their music

2 There are plenty of bands that rap; that is, rap vocals with live instruments. I suppose if I recommended the Gym Class Heroes, that would be unsuitable, since they rap? What if they sing AND rap? Is that okay, then?

So what doesn’t make rap music, exactly? Is it the lack of singing? Is it the fact that they vamp, which is done in rock, jazz, and pretty much every kind of music that matters? Or do you simply not like the lyrics? There are certainly plenty of rap groups that sing about more than sex, drugs, pretending to shoot people, and all that other stuff (mind you, I like those ones just fine :P).

Before you say something so definitive about rap - a definitive statement which is false, since rap is more akin to lyric percussion than simply poetry - please take time to educate yourself about the subject matter.

Or, you could ignore posts concerning rap. But, I have a feeling that this thread will be a lot about rap, forcing you to either ignore most of it, or expand your horizons. Up to you.

EDIT: Furthermore, to expand on what Hades said about Barenaked Ladies, something they tend to do at live concerts is freestyle rap. A lot. You can tell pretty easily that there’s a rap influence in their music.

10

Does that mean GREGORIAN CHANT is not music because it’s just vocals?

Um, no. In my mind it’s perfectly possible to have music without lyrics. But lyrics without music is just poetry.

Or how about some electronica? Where do you draw the line on what is music and what is not?

I consider some electronica to be plain old noise, not music. Depends on whether I can actually make out a tune in there or not.

I find it hard to believe that someone can not admit that rap is a style of music, regardless of their personal feelings towards it, in this day and age.

I admit that some people consider it music. I don’t, though.

And what the fuck? Rap isn’t music? Why does that even matter? The title of this thread is “modern wordsmiths,” not “modern lyricists who happen to sing from their diaphragm all pretty-like”

You’re right. The thread title is misleading. I apologize.

And also for the record, have you even heard BNL vocals? They’re far closer to rapping than they are to singing.

In their two most famous songs, perhaps. Not in the vast majority of their tracks.

That’s sort of an uneducated statement.

No, it’s an extremely uneducated statement. I never made any claims about being educated about music. Most people aren’t.

While it’s true that there’s a lot of rap music that just vamps (repeats sections) their music over and over again, it’s no different from rock music in that regard. Take four or five chords, play them in a logical progression, and do it over again. Rap is hardly different from that.

Except that in rock music, generally when the lyricists enunciate their words, they actually follow the tune, rather than just speaking them while the music happens around them.

So what doesn’t make rap music, exactly? Is it the lack of singing?

Pretty much, yeah.

EDIT: Furthermore, to expand on what Hades said about Barenaked Ladies, something they tend to do at live concerts is freestyle rap. A lot. You can tell pretty easily that there’s a rap influence in their music.

I’ve never been to one of their concerts, or, in fact, any concert at all, and have no intention of starting. And being “influenced” by something is not the same as being that something. Even in their most “rappy” songs, they’re still not just talking while music plays.

But, I have a feeling that this thread will be a lot about rap, forcing you to either ignore most of it, or expand your horizons. Up to you.

If I wanted to read poetry I daresay I could find plenty of people who have a way with words. I’m more interested in music, and as I said, I realize the title of the thread is misleading.

11

I’ve never heard a rap song where the words aren’t at least stressed on certain beats. I’ve rarely heard anyone just talk over music in that way, and when I have, it was never the primary vocals, it was atmospheric background gibberish. Not even 50c.

12

That’s missing the point I just made, which is that Rap music is hardly any different from rock music.

Except that in rock music, generally when the lyricists enunciate their words, they actually follow the tune, rather than just speaking them while the music happens around them.

Rappers do all of that. How much rap have you listened to? Some rappers enunciate very well, while others don’t. It’s like that in rock music, too; you can understand some people just fine, and others, you can’t.

Rap is not simply ‘talking over a beat’. If that was rap, you’d be right in saying that it would be absolutely retarded. But rap is a lot more like lyric percussion. Or, would say say that percussion ensembles are not music, either?

www.rpgclassics.com/staff/SG/example1.mp3 <-- Talking over music

www.rpgclassics.com/staff/SG/example2.mp3 <-- Percussively, in rhythm with the music.

(By the way, all my examples are work safe and devoid of any sort of profanity)

Pretty much, yeah. (in reference to rap not being music due to a lack of singing)

Okay, then what about what I said? What about those who sing and rap? What about those who rap on pitches (notes)? What criterion are you setting forth? Where do you draw the line?

www.rpgclassics.com/staff/SG/example3.mp3 <-- Singing on pitches. Is this acceptable within your criterion?

I’ve never been to one of their concerts, or, in fact, any concert at all, and have no intention of starting. And being “influenced” by something is not the same as being that something. Even in their most “rappy” songs, they’re still not just talking while music plays.

Obviously not, because, as I said, if anyone did that, they’d be booed off stage, rap or rock.

If I wanted to read poetry I daresay I could find plenty of people who have a way with words. I’m more interested in music, and as I said, I realize the title of the thread is misleading.

You’re more interested in music? I thought this thread was about bands with good lyrics? In any case, like I said, hopefully, you’ll broaden your horizons and see that rap is music, not devolved in any way from rock, and is far more than just talking over music. I’m not saying these things to win an argument; rather, I’m telling you that a lot of people don’t do that in rock, plain and simple.

13

Rappers do all of that. How much rap have you listened to? Some rappers enunciate very well, while others don’t. It’s like that in rock music, too; you can understand some people just fine, and others, you can’t.

Sorry, I used the word “enunciate” wrong, I was trying to find a synonym for “say” that wasn’t “say”. 8p My point was just a reiteration of what I said earlier - that singers sing, while rappers speak. Whether they speak along with the beat or not, it’s still speech.

But rap is a lot more like lyric percussion.

I think we’ll just have to differ on this. I just don’t see plain old speech as music, regardless of its cadence or whether there’s a beat in the background. I think a drum is more musical than a voice that isn’t singing; the voice actually distracts from the tune. Strange as it may seem, if you take a piece of music and then put a speaking voice over the top of it, I think that transforms the pieces as a whole into something that isn’t music any more.

Okay, then what about what I said? What about those who sing and rap? What about those who rap on pitches (notes)? What criterion are you setting forth? Where do you draw the line?

I dunno why it’s such a big deal. It’s pretty easy for me to tell if someone is singing or rapping. As for those who do both, I consider the songs which are, well, songs, as music, and those which aren’t, as not-music.
Rap tracks might have music there in the background, but dangit, I can’t make any of it out because there’s some guy reciting poetry over the top of it.

I thought this thread was about bands with good lyrics?

Music bands, yes.

In any case, like I said, hopefully, you’ll broaden your horizons and see that rap is music, not devolved in any way from rock, and is far more than just talking over music.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree about it. Note that I never said that rap is not entertainment, or even that it’s not art. I just don’t see it as falling under the definition of music, and (as an aside) certainly not under the category of things I enjoy listening to.

14

Whether they speak along with the beat or not, it’s still speech.
So a guitarist who doesn’t play along to a regular beat is still playing music, and not just making random sounds?

I’m pretty sure beat is hugely significant and you’re grasping at straws. Beat changes everything. Regularity, structure, and repetition are the only difference between music and mere sounds. I don’t think “just speaking” is music either, but “just speaking” is so totally not what rappers do, at all. There’s an element of time and structure to rapping that transcends what you do when you’re just chatting it up with your buddies. Rapping and singing are almost exactly the same. Rapping is just more staccato.

15

Did you listen to the examples I showed you? I’m very curious what you think, specifically of example 3, where there’s no ‘talking’ at all. Again, not trying to argue, but I’m very curious to see how that one falls under your personal aesthetic.

In any case, I don’t mind agreeing to disagree. I do think, however, you’re gonna have a hard time finding other rock artists who do anything close to what Barenaked Ladies do. And, as I said, it’s clear why they do that - a huge hip-hop influence.

But, please listen to example 3. :stuck_out_tongue:

16

Example 2 is so fucking cool lmao

17

I’m with SG, Hades, Gila, and so on about rap, but they’ve pretty much said anything I would say.

As for the original criteria, Cederic Bixler-Zavala (One Armed Scissor by At the Drive In; Televators, Tetragrammatron, Wax Simulacra, and Vicarious Atonement by the Mars Volta, especially) uses the sonic qualities of words to great extent, even if it’s not always internal rhyme; Mike Patton wrote all the lyrics for Faith No More purely for the sound of the words, and uses the sonic qualities of words in like all thirty of his other groups (he raps occasionally, but falsetto, crooning, and reg’lar singing are all far more common. Peeping Tom is the poppiest group he’s in, while Mr. Bungle’s second album, or Tomahawk have the most inventive lyrics); John Darnielle uses a lot of alliteration, assonance, and allusion in his songs, besides being one of the all-around best lyricists there is (he’s not so great at the singy end of things); there’s not a poetic device in a literature textbook Robert Smith hasn’t thrown at a Cure song, and if there is, Nick Cave has put it in a Bad Seeds song; Tom Waits’ later stuff has some weird rhyme schemes going on; Conor Oberst uses the vocal technique of poor diction to prove words don’t have to rhyme to rhyme in extremely long verses ending in a single rhyme.

The Gin Blossoms are a '90s pop band a lot like the Barenaked Ladies, and they’ve got some pretty complex lyrics, though not many after Doug Died. I don’t know enough of them to know any examples, but they’re pretty rad.

And, yeah, example 2 is pretty fucking rad, SG. Is that all you?

18

Hah, I wish. www.songstowearpantsto.com

I do rap, though.

19

I always wondered what it would be like, to combine rap and gregorian chanting. Would sound so very interesting.

As a note, generally, I don’t like rap. But that’s probably just because I haven’t found any that really strikes a chord with me.

20

Did you listen to the examples I showed you?

No… I have an aversion to listening/watching media online. I don’t know why. I’ve never seen a YouTube video. Generally I don’t like people paying attention to me, either at home or at work, so I do silent things. ^^; Don’t ask me to explain that one, I don’t really get it either.

One thing I am skeptical of is that rap artists actually show intelligence in their lyrics. What little rap I’ve unfortunately been exposed to seems to be full of ebonics, slang, and bravado - even the ones that aren’t about sex, drugs and violence. Are there really rap artists who use words like “abacus”, “profanity”, “incorporated” or “unencumbered”?