Yeah, you know what, Ren? I’d rather have the human race die off than the animals who know how to coexist with their environment and not send it to the shithole.
I never meant to mock. I merely meant to remind everybody that the situation is much more dire than it might appear, because while everybody might/will be celebrating about the saving of the manatees in the near future (if this campaign is successful enough, which it might just be), probably ten more species of animals which are just as important to the world, just as environmentally essential, will have gone extinct, unnoticed to you or I or pretty much anybody in the world. And that’s one of the most depressing things ever.
But also something that we should NEVER, NEVER, forget. At least, that is my belief. And so, if I seemed harsh, I truly am sorry, but I feel really powerfully about this. And if you’re going to just give up the fight, and believe that nothing can be done about the billions of people who have caused this situation, and focus your efforts only on the already-created (yet woefully limited) venues of environmental support, then that’s great; but it’s hardly enough. We’re never going to save the world if we assume the world is already dead due to irrevocable human stupidity.
I spout my meaningless statistics because they’re the only way to get a point across with as little writing as possible, because if I went on and on, people would get bored. Sorry.
Look, I see nothing wrong with supporting the manatees - I think that what you’re doing is wonderful, Astral, I truly do. I wish more people could be environmentally conscious like that, and helping one species at a time IS the way that things have to go. What makes me post shit like this though, is the fact that so many people have such a vague, limited view of the incredibly fragile and sad state our world is in, and the fact that these same people are so often the people who will openly voice support for saving creatures like manatees for little reason other than “they’re so cute and gentle,” with no care for the bigger picture.
That’s all. I’m sorry if anybody was offended, but I hope people’s eyes were opened. Because we can say all we want about how we care about the environment, but until we actually take it ALL in, in its full dreadfulness, and focus our efforts FROM THE BEGINNING based on that…our efforts are going to be in vain.
-Mazrim Taim
PS, yes, I have spent some hours volunteering at the aquarium, some if not most of the time in the endangered species unit, thanks for asking.
In no way or form does human success have anything to do with the elimination of a lot of species throughout the world
Well, if we were still cavemen, a lot of species would still be here. I was not saying that their elimination is cause of our development. It is consequential. If we were to take precautions for their preservation, our development would be hindered since tech development would take extra time to make it environmental safe. Toads, for example, are diing worldwide because of the greenohuse effect. If we were to make enviroment safe cars since the beggining cars wouldn’t exist commercially to this day.
And Astral, it is natural that after some periods of species spreading a small group of species will ravage the others. When whales gained the seas the amount of fish species dropped a lot. Same happened to the marsupials in South America when the mamales from North & Central America got there, and with amphibians and some reptiles when dinosaurs started gaining their plots of land… Now it is happening with the human species and the species it keeps (cows, dogs etc). We’re conquering the world.
And finally, a little rant… If you would like the human race to die off, you could start giving people a good example. Maybe people will be touched by your voluntary act and they will follow it, and then animals won’t have to worry about us anymore.
I think it’s rather obvious what kind of sad state the world is in, but most people choose to ignore it. And let me just say that AT LEAST the people who you say have a “limited view” have SOME view unlike most of the population. And I’m at a loss as to what you’re talking about with this: “And if you’re going to just give up the fight and believe that nothing can be done about the billions of people who have caused this situation”… Uhh, what? People need to be made to realize that the environment and the creatures who live with us in it are a priority, and at least in this country, our president isn’t helping.
And Ren, I find your attitude condescending and somewhat laughable. I think I give people plenty of “good examples”… how are you doing as of late?
Oh, and you know what else? I think all of you are MEAN people (edited~ :P) for giving me this shit when I made a rather simple post which certain people decided was something they had to pick at! And Ren, honest to god, you are not the most intelligent member of this message board, so stop acting like it! You want me to go on a mini rant? I’m tired of people who know next to nothing pretending like they’re the epitome of scholarly scholars.
Dude, Ren, you have got to be one of the biggest assholes on the boards up to this day for posting this shit. You are so fucking out there in your misguided and misinformed biased bull shit that it baffles my mind that people could’ve spouted that crap and made you understand it in any logical terms.
>Well, if we were still cavemen, a lot of species would still be here. I was not saying that their elimination is cause of our development. It is consequential.
Duh
>If we were to take precautions for their preservation, our development would be hindered since tech development would take extra time to make it environmental safe.
Prove it
>Toads, for example, are diing worldwide because of the greenohuse effect. If we were to make enviroment safe cars since the beggining cars wouldn’t exist commercially to this day.
A lot of things are affected by the greenhouse effect, including humans. For example, fishermen in Chile are fucking dying because El Nino is killing their fish supply. El nino disrupts global current patterns, affecting the availability of food and thus affecting the presences of fish in that part of Chile. That is 1 example. Also, did you kinda notice that the weather has been gradually getting more and more fucked up? Droughts in the midwest, floods in other places of the world? Shit like that affects human lives uselessly since humans can act on it and prevent shit from keeping to happen. That’s what research AND HUMAN ADVANCEMENT seeks to do. In fact, it is stagnant to accept the current conditions because it will only become a matter of time before the Earth gets really shitty, with reformed coastlines and cities with millions of people becoming flooded beyond repair.
>And Astral, it is natural that after some periods of species spreading a small group of species will ravage the others
Dude, even if that totally baseless and unsupported comment WERE true, whales affecting fish supplies in certain time spans is A TOTALLY different ball park from the one we’re dealing with, since that is 1 ecosystem, while humans affect the entire world’s ecosystems. Not the same scale 8P. As for dinosaurs and mammals radiating, that caused AN INCREASE in biodiversity over time. Species radiation is evolution as creatures are adpating to specific niches and specializing. Its the OPPOSITE of mass extinction. Dear fucking god x_X.
As for the cars comment, its not because something bad fucking happened that we can’t improve things in the future. Its not because we can made polluting cars that we shouldn’t be making environment friendly cars. WHAT THE FUCK kind of argument is that? Its not because we have the chance to affect the environment that we should when we can avoid it, which we can in a lot of situation.
As Maz pointed out in his last post, SHIT is happening. It fucking sucks and its happening everywhere. Manatees are 1 species worth saving, esp since we’re not trying to build condominiums and factories to expand human society. A lot of species are worth saving and getting people to start saving parts of the environment is a start for a greater movment to save other parts of the envrionment and create a life- conscious society. There is no fucking human detriment in doing that. Saying otherwise is like saying fucking recycling is fucking useless. WTF?
Originally posted by Astral
And Ren, I find your attitude condescending and somewhat laughable. I think I give people plenty of “good examples”… how are you doing as of late?
Wow… I had expected a harsh reaction.
I was subliminar on my comment because I thought saying the real thing would be something so offensive I wouldn’t say even to people I’d like to see doing it. I’ll just stick to the subtle euphemism anyway.
And no, I’m not giving any good example. But then, I don’t put too much thought on it.
<If you would like the human race to die off, you could start giving people a good example. Keywords: “die off”, “example”>
Sin: everything here depends on your point of view. Toothed whales eat fish, a lot of fish… by the moment the first ones got into open seas, they were lowering the maount of fish there would be in the seas. Just think of it, in some places where toothless whales were hunted, statistics show that the more they were hunted, the more krill there would be in the area.
As for the cars, just think if a car could be environmental safe by the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s. There was no technology for that. They had to use gasoline, and they were quite inneficient in burning it. So, we made better engines that need less fuel and we’re using it today. But this doesn’t change the past, in which you’d use a very polluent engine or you wouldn’t use engines at all.
You said another word that’s keyword for the topic. Recycling. I admit recycling is a need nowadays, but still, taking fresh resources from their sources is more cost-efficient than recycling. If we were to recycle everything, capitalism as we know it wouldn’t exist. In this case, an equilibrium between recycling and making things from virgin resources is needed.
Back to the manatees and speedboats. If you wanna see a sea cow get slashed and maimed because of assholes that decide to ride their speedboats in areas, go to sea world, where they treat to heal these poor guys for what other humans do. The fact that we put these guys through that kind of pain is what makes me dislike what’s happening esp. I dunno about you folks, but getting slashed by motor boat engines is really not a nice way to die or have to go through without proper attention and its the human’s responsibility that it happens.
Yeah it’s sad that the manatees are dying. Why raise money? If you wanna feel good about yourself, how bout you actually do something. Like, y’know, actively. I’m tired of people just raising money and acting like they did a really good thing. Anyone can raise money to pay for something, but only a few people actually go out and <b>do something about it</b>. Why do you think the US has given the people the freedom to <u>change laws</u>. You could get the legal boating zones to be stricter. Maybe put up more signs. Stricter penalties for not following the laws, didya ever think of that?
Originally posted by Steve
Yeah it’s sad that the manatees are dying. Why raise money? If you wanna feel good about yourself, how bout you actually do something. Like, y’know, actively. I’m tired of people just raising money and acting like they did a really good thing. Anyone can raise money to pay for something, but only a few people actually go out and <b>do something about it</b>. Why do you think the US has given the people the freedom to <u>change laws</u>. You could get the legal boating zones to be stricter. Maybe put up more signs. Stricter penalties for not following the laws, didya ever think of that?
Of course, changing laws costs money. Money which has to come from somewhere… or somebody (somebodies).
Originally posted by Sinistral
Back to the manatees and speedboats. If you wanna see a sea cow get slashed and maimed because of assholes that decide to ride their speedboats in areas, go to sea world, where they treat to heal these poor guys for what other humans do. The fact that we put these guys through that kind of pain is what makes me dislike what’s happening esp. I dunno about you folks, but getting slashed by motor boat engines is really not a nice way to die or have to go through without proper attention and its the human’s responsibility that it happens.
Sorry for being an ass, but being caught on a net and not being able to move, then being thrown on a dark place where you’ll die from asfixiation or hypothermy ain’t any cooler. Still, you eat fish, and you don’t feel any pity for the fish. Growing on a cage that’s so small you can’t even move is one of the most suffering-full lives that one can have. Still, you eat chicken, and you don’t feel any pity for the chicken. And so on, for every kind of flesh we eat. This reminds me of the comment Kaiser posted about cuteness.
Originally posted by Ren
And no, I’m not giving any good example. But then, I don’t put too much thought on it.
It shows since your argument makes no sense
Originally posted by Ren
Sin: everything here depends on your point of view. Toothed whales eat fish, a lot of fish… by the moment the first ones got into open seas, they were lowering the maount of fish there would be in the seas. Just think of it, in some places where toothless whales were hunted, statistics show that the more they were hunted, the more krill there would be in the area…
Its not point of view, its fucking fact, 1 ecosystem being affected by predation is natural. Predator-prey cycles exist for a reason and form cyclical/sinusoidal patterns in terms of numbers of individuals. For over 100 years the Hudson Bay Company kept track of predator and prey skins which they received. The number of animals killed in a year were directly related to the total number of animals in an area. Its not because there are cycles of heightened predation that there aren’t cycles of lowered predation, which are needed to have prey populations survive so that predators can survive. If the fish the whales ate went to extinction, shortly followed by the whales since they wouldn’t have had anything to eat. Your argument makes no sense.
Entire ecosystems worldwide being destroyed by a single species is unnatural. Also , you fail to provide verifiable support for your claims which don’t make sense
Originally posted by Ren
As for the cars, just think if a car could be environmental safe by the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s. There was no technology for that. They had to use gasoline, and they were quite inneficient in burning it. So, we made better engines that need less fuel and we’re using it today. But this doesn’t change the past, in which you’d use a very polluent engine or you wouldn’t use engines at all.
That’s no excuse to not try to fix the ecosystems we fuck up OR AT LEAST try NOT to fuck up other ecosystems. We are past that time in case you haven’t noticed.
Originally posted by KaiserVonAlmasy
Of course, changing laws costs money. Money which has to come from somewhere… or somebody (somebodies).
Where do you think the taxes go? Despite what most people believe, the taxes are actually used to do stuff.
Changing laws costs money and requires influence. That’s why there are lobbying groups such as this one that work on awareness and political pressure to get changes done. And as the site shows, it requires money as donations kinda help lobbies work. That’s how ALL lobbies work.
Also, that last post you made Ren, that has absolutely nothing to do with anything either you or I have refered to ,so you might want to clarify what the hell it was supposed to mean. Domesticated animals which we eat aren’t going extinct and the world isn’t a worse place than it was for us doing so.
Now that I’m less inflamed… I’ll have to take this away til I get home and can insult Ren nicely. 
And add something that’s more substantial than “fuck you”.
<i>Originally said in the chat</i>
<b>< @ClothHat> Woo a manatee based flamewar at last!</b>
Originally posted by Astral
Woo, how’s this for a harsh reaction, Ren? Go fuck yourself. I’m sure you’re quite good at it.
Finally, things get heated :ah-ha!:
To add to that comment, apparently the schooling in Brazil (are you sure that’s where you come from? I don’t want to do any injustice to the people there) must be sorely inadequate to have produced you.
No, it’s just me that’s cut off with all “philozoogy”. Biology classes here are full of “you should be a friend of the green” and all stuff alike. I’m the exception amoung the group.
[b]
I think we have a prime example of the village idiot here. Perhaps you could work on your subtlety in that area, hmm? [/b]
Try looking in the source of the post where I said that, I put it hidden into > and < so as not to be offensive unless you wanted to go deep into it.
Dude, don’t tell people they’re dumb when you yourself can’t formulate an argument better than “I think what I think because I think what people teach is stupid” on top of a non-sensical, unsupported, arrogant, destructive and ultimately pointless shitty argument.
Any further deviation from this thread will be considered spam and action will be taken against any and all perpretators. That includes continuing the flame war and making arguments that make no sense. If you want an example of an argument that is well structured and has at least some support, look at how maz made his 2nd post. If you’re not going to be doing anything like that and spout crap like what Ren just did, your post will be removed and if you continue, action will be taken to remove you. Otherwise, shut up and/or stay out of the thread. Trolling is not tolerated.
Wow, Astral wants to donate money to a cause she feels is worthy. Let’s make a huge fucking deal about it now.
Honestly, kids. If she wants to save some manatees, let her. Jesus Christ. :fungah:
however there isn’t much to do about it… now.
manatees are awesome!
edit sin: DOH I edited instead of quoting -_- sorry about that.
*edit: hahaha… I kind of forgot what I put in my post…:thud:
"however there isn’t much to do about it… now. "
Change doesn’t happen if people don’t believe it can start happening, as people won’t do stuff to change things. You gotta start something for results to happen and that takes time.