my #1 complain with FFXII would be that the character models don’t change when you change their gear.
So you dislike pretty much every JRPG in existence, then?
No. With earlier games it’s understandable, with the limits of technology being what they were. But with FFXII, they could have made characters change in looks between types of armor, just like with FFXI. They just didn’t. Even if they look one way on the main screen, and look normal for the events or videos. It was just silly dressing Vaan in heavy plate armor, and then seeing him in that little vest, and lead boots.
Besides, with many previous RPG’s, characters looks do change, such as with FFIV, FFV, and even a little changing in FFVI and FFIX. The only games in the FF series where the characters never seem to change looks are FF2, FF7, FF8, and FF10. Of course, FF12 too.
They’ve had the technology to do this for ages - easily since the PS1 era. But no JRPG that I know of actually changes the character’s looks when you change their equipment, with the exception of the equipped weapon. So if you dislike a game because it doesn’t change a character’s looks when equipment changes, you therefore dislike every JRPG in existence.
I have no idea what you’re talking about when you say that FF4/5/6 change characters’ looks when you change their equipment. None of them do that.
But you know, this IS an interesting question: why not show the characters wearing the armor they put on? Not only is it more realistic, but it can be a visual help; “Whoops, my character is still wearing his Fire Armor. Better change it before I fight the Ice Monster.”
And let’s admit it, some FF characters’ costumes are VERY inappropriate for combat (I guess Viera must train for combat on high heels.) 
I can only think of one reason, and it’s that the game designers are so enamored of their character designs that they want to have them visible as much as they can. (Or is it the Japanese fans who insist on that?)
FFX-2 and FFXI are the only two I can think of where the armor changes. There are a lot of armor choices in FF games, and I’m sure it’s a feature they would love to include. My thoughts are it is not done because of budget and time restraints. Sure, they could spend a few hundred thousand employing more artists and programmers to implement the feature, but that feature doesn’t necessarily equate to more sales.
It was included in FFX-2 because the battle mechanics revolved around the costumes, and the game’s selling point was eye candy. Visualizing each piece of armor in FFXI is done because it’s one of the most essential elements in MMO’s.
In FFX-2 you’re not changing your equipment, though - you’re changing your job class. Every game always shows you with different models/sprites when you do that. Perhaps he was railing against the lack of job classes in FF10/12?
I agree it’d be a great thing if they would change the model when the equipment changes, but the fact is that there aren’t any JRPGs that do that, so saying you don’t like a particular game because of that fact is disingenuous.
And yes, the reason it isn’t done is most probably due to budget/time shortages. There’s just too much stuff to keep track of, and the time could be better spent doing more substantial things.
That’s not entirely true either. Costume changing does occur in JRPGs. Sadly though that’s only for the sake of fan-service. Even in DQ VIII where you could change a characters appearance (even for cutscenes) by equipping certain armor sets.
That said, what I wouldn’t give to not only have a JRPG with changeable outfits, but outfits that’ll wear out with repeated use in combat (kinda like in Shadow of the Colossus).
Killmore: Exactly. Heck, how many optional costumes were there in Wild Arms 5? More than a dozen, in-between both sets of “student” uniforms, the “Classic” WA costumes and a few others. And isn’t a Job change in FF indicated by changing the character’s clothes? I’m not convinced it’s that really difficult or expensive to implement a visible-armor feature (though I can see it being given a low priority on the list of features to be included.) Besides, it isn’t like there are that many armor styles- the difference between, say, plate armor and Fire Armor might just be the color.
Even in WA5, only about a third of the armors caused a change, and they were all blatantly recolors of the same basic models; they didn’t actually look any different other than the colors.
Is it difficult to do? Not if you want to do it that way, no. Is it really important? I don’t think so. Like I said, I’d prefer they get everything else right first.
It just occurred to me that FF’s VII, VIII, and X wouldn’t have costume changes anyway because nobody wore any armor in those games. X had Shields/Guards/Rings/ect…, VII had Bangles, and VIII’s protagonists wore nothing at all (they just shirked all of their performance needs onto their GFs).
And while X-2 had their [STRIKE]cos-play[/STRIKE] dress spheres. The only other pieces of equipment that they could wear were Garment Grids and two accessories.
And speaking of which, most of these characters are typically designed outlandishly for the sake of trying to stand out amongst a crowd of similarly outlandishly designed characters. Plus, it gives the cos-players something to do.
It’s not just that their looks don’t change when they change gear. They don’t change, ever. FFXII does a lot of FFXI mimicing, why couldn’t they mimic the equip change also ? Doesn’t changing jobs also denote changing gear ? In FFX-2, they DID change gear when they changed jobs, it’s just the only gear you had any choice about were the accessories.
FFX dodged the bullet, because the characters always wear the same clothes, and you don’t change their armor, just Weapon, Shield, and Accessory, which all change on the character model. In FFXII, it would have been nice to see Balthier wearing something else when he has a “change of wardrobe”. Even if they didn’t change looks when they changed gear, but still changed looks for other reasons, i wouldn’t really complain so much, but the characters are all pretty static in their looks, and it was just one of the reasons i didn’t enjoy the game as much.
That’s not saying i didn’t like the game, i did like it, i just didn’t enjoy it as much as i would have if the characters changed visuals once in a while. The game has a lot going for it, story, character depth, side quests and exploration.
One thing that i LOVED about the game was the information that gets unlocked when you kill a certain ammount of monsters. I thought it was a very interesting touch, and i would spend hours just getting the numbers cleared.
I’m not lying when i say that i went over the maximum recordable time on the game. It stopped recording t 95 hours. I probably spent about 130 on it. I am currently playing it again, trying to figure out ways to bring a little character individuality. I am going to be using Techniks more, and learning fewer licenses. I might make it to the Urutan Yensa before i loose interest.
Doesn’t changing jobs also denote changing gear ?
Not at all. Job classes just indicate what you’re good at and what abilities you know. It doesn’t indicate a change of clothing at all. For example, in FF5 you could wear the same armor whether you’re a Knight or a Samurai.
FF12 does keep recording after 99 hours. I have 120 or so logged on it.
I still don’t think it’s fair to bash FF12 for not changing character models when equipment changes, when there isn’t a single game out there that does that. FF12 doesn’t have job classes; the only way to have the character model change would be to change it for every piece of armor, and considering the amount of equipment available, that would be a quite significant effort, one I’d prefer they spend on other, more important things.
But a Summoner and a Knight can’t wear the same things, and that’s what i meant. We know a knight by his sword and armor, we know a Samurai by his Katana, Ninja’s by their small swords. While i admit it would be more effort, it would have made the game a lot better in my eyes.
Mine stopped recording at 95:55:55. Maybe there’s a difference in game version then. shug can’t think of any other explanations.
But you’re getting mixed up here. There’s changing the character model, there’s changing jobs, and there’s changing equipment, and you’re conflating all three.
Changing jobs does not equate to changing equipment. Samurais can equip the same armor as knights. Should they then have the same model since they have the same armor? After all, the character himself is the same, it’s just what he’s wearing.
The answer is no - it’s far more useful to change the model based on job class than based on equipment. Job class totally redefines what sort of role the character plays in battle, so it’s very important to see that change.
Equipment, on the other hand, is all just a matter of statistics and (sometimes) status or elemental effects. There isn’t any real difference in terms of what role they play in battle. Changing equipment doesn’t require changing the model.
Now, having said that… if one would go about changing the model, the best way to do it would be the way Tales of the Abyss does it. There, you can equip “Titles” which you earn by doing various things. The titles are the ones that change the character model; equipment doesn’t matter. This way, you can get some variety in what clothes the character wears without having to resort to changing his equipment. (So, for example, if you don’t like what a character looks like, you don’t have to doff that awesome armor+10 and get slaughtered.)
When SE undersands how to pace a story, then Final Fantasy is exciting. FFXII doesn’t do that so far. In the beginning, it was outstanding with how it set up it’s world and it’s events then it just couldn’t resist having me grind for hours before giving me snippets of a great storyline.
You know what game did it pretty well? FFX and FFIX. FF9’s story wasn’t intricate or anything, but I enjoyed it because it invested more in it’s characters and knew how to spread out it’s story more evenly than XII.
I really need to beat XII so I can see whether or not it was worth the ride.
I LOVED FF9, one of my favorite in the series. However, i could never play it through a 2nd time. It’s just so slow paced and drawn out. Even on “Fast” the battle guages go… so… slow…
However, 4 person parties, very unique and specialized characters made each party set up fun to play and interesting, and not to mention a breathtaking story, a main character who wasn’t depressed or have massive mental problems(yes, i am aware he DID have a moment of self-doubt, but the game didn’t revolve around characters who hated themselves like Cloud, Squall, Tidus, and Cecil)
I really thought the medival theme was a great move for the story line. It’s a world that is currently having an Industrial Revolution, but it’s a true Fantasy, which FF7 and FF8 can’t claim.
Anyways, run-on sentances aside, I felt FF12’s was well spaced. It even has it’s challenges(try going in one entrance of Nabudis at level 40, and walking out the other exit) (hint: use Sleep), the Hunts were also interesting. The story is so integrated into FFXII, that most NPC’s you talk to tell a piece of it, the Clan Primer tells part of it, the Hunts tell part of it. You’re constantly absorbing story in FFXII, and it made the game interesting. It’s totally worth going through. (yes, i can have complaints about a game, and still enjoy and like it)p:unch::
FF9 was by far my favorite of the series. I felt the characters were wonderful, particularly in their interaction together. Too many stories take a couple of characters, some of them nice and deep, and have them completely ignore each other. The only other game I can recall that had that sort of interaction was Tales of the Abyss.
FF12’s plot was indeed sorely lacking in pacing, but I agree that its story was presented in many more ways than the traditional kind. People kvetch about Vaan being only an observer, but in truth your entire party is mainly observers for the majority of the game. It’s an interesting perspective.
kvetch? Heh, I gues I’ll use context clues on that one
I enjoyed the fact that Vaan was an observer, in fact, the only person who actually has an a critical role in the storyline so far is Ashe and strangely it seems like they’re starting to put more emphasis on Baltheir from my point in the story.
The thing is, Vaan isn’t interesting. Zidane, Vivi, heck, nearly the entire cast of FF9 were pretty cartoonish at times but as the game went on they actively changed. It wasn’t a Xenogears style of character development, but as silly as it sounds, Vivi and Steiner’s friendship was fun to watch and call me a sucker, but Garnet and Zidane’s romance, sappy as it was, was pretty endearing.
So far, Basch is still somewhat brooding. Penelo is still perky and saying three lines every four hours. Fran’s still talking about the freakin’ mist, etc. Come on Square, ya’ll can do better.
I found the interaction in FF9 to be amazingly deep. For example:
-Steiner’s slow acceptance of Zidane. Ironically, exactly when Steiner finally comes to terms with him, Zidane has had his worldview turned upside down and is in exactly the wrong mood to take it.
-Eiko’s feelings for Zidane (and thereby her jealousy of Garnet), while comical at first, turn into something surprisingly mature for someone so young. Ditto Zidane’s feelings for Garnet, in a totally different way.
-Amarant’s desire to follow Zidane, and his continuous attempts at understanding him.
-Zidane’s relationship with Kuja and Garland and his uneasy dealings with Mikoto.
-Vivi’s innocence when compared with that of the Black Mage Village.
This is just scratching the surface. FF9 was wonderful.
I agree that Vaan isn’t interesting. He isn’t meant to be interesting. He’s 2007’s version of the silent protagonist, except that frankly, that no longer works, so this is the next best thing: the observer. Penelo is pretty much in the same boat except she’s a female and a foil to Vaan. Both of them have far greater roles in FF12: Revenant Wings.
On the video that comes with the Collectors Edition, they said in one of the later drafts, Basche was the main character, but they felt that fewer of the target would be able to relate to him as a main character, so they made Vaan be the center of attention of the players, feeling that more people would enjoy it more and be able to relate to him.
FFXII has a lot of Star Wars in it. It occured to me when Vaan, Basche, Balthier, and Fran leave Rabanastre for Bhujerba. And rescuing Princess Ashe from the Leviathan really nailed the lid on the coffin. The character types are similar too. Bashe is like Obi-wan, Princess Ashe has the atitude like Leia. Balthier is a scoundrel like Han, even holds the “pokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side” philosophy. Balthier’s co-pilot and engineer(and life partner) is a non-human. Yes. I just compared Fran to Chewie, LOL.
I normally combine Vaan’s character with Luke and Artoo. And finally, Penello is definately Threepio. Her constant nagging on Vaan, and both Vaan and Penello’s somewhat-trivial positions in the whole quest, but are just useful enough to push the story foreward and not be totally useless.
So, ultimately, FFXII = Star Wars. At least in the beginning. Later it looses the Star Warsiness.