30 second excuses to fight the next battle don’t replace explorable worlds where you can actually talk to people and see things happening as a result of your actions.
Again: So you don’t like the story SRPG’s. So don’t blame a particular game which happens to be an SRPG for having a bad story.
It was solid enough to drive the gameplay but it wasn’t a great story in its own right and it didn’t reward you for ever trying to figure it out beyond what you need to know to progress in the game.
Again: So you don’t like the story SRPG’s. So don’t blame a particular game which happens to be an SRPG for having a bad story.
I do like story “SRPGs.” I just don’t like FFT. Belonging to a certain genre doesn’t put a game on par with every other game in the genre, so you can stop talking as if it does. We’re not talking about genres. We’re talking about whether or not a game has a solid story, not whether or not it should be forgiven for it. But if you want to go in that direction: no, I don’t think it’s okay for FFT to have a bad story just because it’s an SRPG, because it obviously would’ve benefitted from being a little more fleshed out, and I don’t see why it couldn’t have been.
Look at other PSX games that comprised story and tactics elements. Suikoden II is the best example I can think of, and it’s probably the best RPG I’ve ever played. It has advanced-wars-like tactical battles, normal rpg-style battles, rps-style duels… and still manages to have a vast explorable world where you can recruit dozens of officers to lead your soldiers into massive wars. And they would all live in a castle that you actually build and maintain. Its tactical elements aren’t as developed as FFT’s, but the game excels in so many other ways that FFT shouldn’t have failed to, especially story, which is exactly my point.
Even RTS games like Starcraft had more and deeper story elements, and they did it with even less time between battles, on one screen with four talking heads.
So you can keep bragging about how FFT’s story is so cool because it’s so far above the “tiresome sixth-grade-level prose” you find in other games, but you’ll be doing it with the knowledge that it’s less complex than a game I actually was playing in the 6th grade. I’m not trying to take away your right to like it, but I don’t think you even know why you do, because the reasons you give don’t make any sense at all. It’s not deep or epic and it doesn’t belong on a list of games that are. I think that’s what I was trying to say before all this started.
…You mean like FF12 did?
What? That has yet to be seen. I don’t know what you’re getting at here, but if you’re taking a jab at FF12… I so probably agree with you
I don’t think you’ve even got a good idea of what an SRPG is, seeing as you’ve quoted only regular RPGs and RTS. Have you ever played Suikoden Tactics/Rhapsodia, Ogre Battle, Disgaea, Soul Nomad or… well, any other SRPG ever? Suikoden II isn’t an SRPG. Not even remotely close. That’s not the kind of games we are talking about here. You’re once again going on about how a certain game isn’t enough like other games, even though it was never even meant to be anything even remotely alike from the first place.
Also, let me re-state the point: You didn’t get through half the game and your comment about Ramza’s reed flute playing for his girlfriend (Lol, OveliaXRamza) makes it clear you weren’t really paying much attention at all through what you did play.
We’re not talking about genres. We’re talking about whether or not a game has a solid story, not whether or not it should be forgiven for it.
No, we’re not. Let me show you your own words, again:
30 second excuses to fight the next battle don’t replace explorable worlds where you can actually talk to people and see things happening as a result of your actions.
That’s true for every SRPG out there. In none of them can you talk to people or explore the world. That’s for regular RPGs or hybrid SRPGs.
And by the way, no, most of the story was not shown in 30-second bits before battle. There are something like 50 separate event scenes, each several minutes long, each of which is helpfully recorded and which you can re-view via the Chronicle, and most of which don’t even follow the protagonist.
'm not trying to take away your right to like it, but I don’t think you even know why you do, because the reasons you give don’t make any sense at all. It’s not deep or epic and it doesn’t belong on a list of games that are. I think that’s what I was trying to say before all this started.
Take a look at the relationships between the characters in this game. Take a look at the sheer number of characters. Keeping track of them, their goals, their alliances, and their actions is in and of itself far more complex than most RPGs, which if you’re lucky feature ten poorly-defined stereotypes.
What? That has yet to be seen. I don’t know what you’re getting at here, but if you’re taking a jab at FF12… I so probably agree with you
No. You complained about FF12’s story. I’ve said in the past that the story there is not something that jumps out at you; if you really want to understand it on a deeper level, you need to go around and talk to NPCs, read the Clan Primer as you unlock it, and pay attention to the setting. And yet now you’re saying that that’s exactly the kind of thing you enjoy, so either you simply didn’t give FF12 a chance, or you’re prejudiced against FFT and are saying things you don’t believe.
I don’t think you’ve even got a good idea of what an SRPG is, seeing as you’ve quoted only regular RPGs and RTS.
And where did I say I was going to give examples of SRPGs? Nowhere.
Have you ever played Suikoden Tactics/Rhapsodia, Ogre Battle, Disgaea, Soul Nomad or… well, any other SRPG ever? Suikoden II isn’t an SRPG. Not even remotely close.
I’ve played Ogre Battle, and congratulations on proving wrong something I didn’t even say. I hope you’re proud, but I don’t care, at all, and it doesn’t effect my argument, at all.
That’s not the kind of games we are talking about here.
You’re not talking about anything here. This is between me and Cid. Your little jabs on the side are irrelevant and annoying.
You’re once again going on about how a certain game isn’t enough like other games, even though it was never even meant to be anything even remotely alike from the first place.
Whether it was meant to be a certain way has nothing to do with whether it would benefit from being a certain way.
Also, let me re-state the point: You didn’t get through half the game and your comment about Ramza’s reed flute playing for his girlfriend (Lol, OveliaXRamza is just about the less likely pairing in the entire game) makes it clear you weren’t paying much attention at all through what you did play.
I love how you think you know how far I’ve got in any game, ever, and how you probably looked through 2 year old posts that I don’t even agree with myself on anymore to figure it out. Too bad that doesn’t make you any less wrong or presumptuous.
I’ve been ignoring everything you’ve said until now, but please go away. You have nothing to add and I wouldn’t want to listen to it at this point if you did.
That’s true for every SRPG out there. In none of them can you talk to people or explore the world. That’s for regular RPGs or hybrid SRPGs.
And by the way, no, most of the story was not shown in 30-second bits before battle. There are something like 50 separate event scenes, each several minutes long, each of which is helpfully recorded and which you can re-view via the Chronicle, and most of which don’t even follow the protagonist.
Just because it’s true for every SRPG doesn’t mean I’m talking about every SRPG. I don’t think every SRPG should have explorable worlds. I think FFT should’ve if it wanted to have a story as complex as the one it failed to have. I never said FFT was a bad SRPG. I never said SRPGs are bad games. I never said it was bad for a game not to have a dazzling story. All I said is that FFT doesn’t, and suggested ways that it could’ve, if it wanted to. What part of that don’t you understand? And the “event scenes” are exactly what I’m talking about by the short little clips. I didn’t even take into account what people say in actual battles. There’s even less there.
Take a look at the relationships between the characters in this game. Take a look at the sheer number of characters. Keeping track of them, their goals, their alliances, and their actions is in and of itself far more complex than most RPGs, which if you’re lucky feature ten poorly-defined stereotypes.
Or if you’re playing 7, 8, or 10, which are the ones I’d include on that list I keep bringing up, the protagonist alone has a deeper past than every character and every plot in FFT combined. There was more history in the Kalm scene alone than all of FFT, and it was almost completely fabricated by Cloud. And it shocks you that I’m not impressed.
No. You complained about FF12’s story. I’ve said in the past that the story there is not something that jumps out at you; if you really want to understand it on a deeper level, you need to go around and talk to NPCs, read the Clan Primer as you unlock it, and pay attention to the setting. And yet now you’re saying that that’s exactly the kind of thing you enjoy, so either you simply didn’t give FF12 a chance, or you’re prejudiced against FFT and are saying things you don’t believe.
I didn’t give FF12 a chance. You’re acting like that’s some kind of secret that I’m trying to keep from the world. It’s not. I was underwhelmed within the first hour and I said clearly in my other posts that I still need to determine what to think of its story. I never bashed it. I bashed the gameplay by saying there couldn’t possibly be less story. Wrap your mind around that so you don’t end up using FF12 as an example again.
No, I presume to know how far you’ve played in this game. In which I happen to be right since… well, any other normal person who ever was faced with such an accusation would simply say something regarding the latter segments to prove they’ve gone past the introduction and be done with it, instead of wasting time being defensive. That only makes it more ridiculous when you say something like
without having actually seen even remotely close to half of “every plot in FFT”.
I’m pretty excited about XIII. I think SquareEnix is going to pull out all the stops for their first “HD” FF game, and I’ll be taking the day off work when it comes out. The other two FF games I was really excited about were FF7 and FFXI - I preordered those and took time off as well.
So in my opinion - yes, the major releases are just as exciting as ever. As far as SE’s FF remakes, minor releases, movies and handheld games, no, I don’t get worked up about them. Some I’ll eventually get around to, others I just won’t bother. Depends on time and how much I enjoyed the previous installment. Well, FFVI Advance was an exception as FFVI is my favorite game - that I really looked forward to.
Or maybe I’m just right, and you’re being defensive. I beat Velius before I quit. Most people would agree that chapter four in a four chapter game is more than half way.
Locke: Yeah I’ve been excited about XIII for a while now. I hope it’s not a let down because the trailers look brilliant
Velius is literally just half the way through the story, consdiering how short Chapters 2 & 3 are in comparison to the last. Essentially, the point you chose to quit is comparable to when you get the castle in Suikoden game. Right about then is when you start moving forward with the hunt, and so does Delita with his side.
If most of the story is contained within chapter four, FFT is doing more things wrong than even I gave it credit for and almost everything I said still stands, especially my bottom line.
I don’t think every SRPG should have explorable worlds. I think FFT should’ve if it wanted to have a story as complex as the one it failed to have. I never said FFT was a bad SRPG. I never said SRPGs are bad games. I never said it was bad for a game not to have a dazzling story. All I said is that FFT doesn’t, and suggested ways that it could’ve, if it wanted to. What part of that don’t you understand?
I think that explorable worlds are one way to give over a story. Another way is to give you a rich backstory, as the Chronicle does. Yet another way is to leave things out and have you try to figure them out on your own, as Vagrant Story does and FFT does to some extent as well. FFT suffered from an awful translation which ended up in a confusing story. I’d be bang alongside you if you say that it’s confusing based on that. Try the new translation and see if you still hate it.
So no, I don’t think that it’s impossible for an SRPG to have a deep and complex story, because I think it managed it quite well if you take the time to experience it.
Or if you’re playing 7, 8, or 10, which are the ones I’d include on that list I keep bringing up, the protagonist alone has a deeper past than every character and every plot in FFT combined. There was more history in the Kalm scene alone than all of FFT, and it was almost completely fabricated by Cloud. And it shocks you that I’m not impressed.
There’s depth, and then there’s breadth and width. FF7 has much of the former and very little of the latter two. You can have complex and intriguing stories without having to know every little detail of the past of the protagonists. And if you actually pay attention to the scenes with Ramza and his brothers, you can extrapolate his past quite effectively without ever actually seeing it. FF7 and its ilk spoonfeed you events - which is an excellent way of proceeding in its own way - but FFT makes you extrapolate on your own. The ending in particular is designed not to offer any easy answers at all.
I didn’t give FF12 a chance. You’re acting like that’s some kind of secret that I’m trying to keep from the world. It’s not. I was underwhelmed within the first hour and I said clearly in my other posts that I still need to determine what to think of its story. I never bashed it. I bashed the gameplay by saying there couldn’t possibly be less story. Wrap your mind around that so you don’t end up using FF12 as an example again.
I reread your original statement, and misunderstood it. My apologies.
Hades, please leave the insults and aggressive language out of this. This is a public forum and S-E has the same right to speak and comment on the topic as you do. If you can’t be civil, this will be locked and you’ll get yet another ban warning.
I picked up FFT when it came out, I put about 10 hours in, and I despised it. I was renting it, and I just took it back and deleted my save. The story didn’t interest me at all, I didn’t like the character design, and I thought the combat was slow and clumsy.
After reading people rave about how awesome it was for a year or two, I figured I’d give the game a second chance. I bought it off eBay and played through. I didn’t get into the story or characters too much, just focused on building my own team and winning the battles. I enjoyed putting my team together and developing them, and watching everything come together as my group became unstoppable, able to wipe out the enemy (and sometimes each other) in a round or two.
It’s fun reading about the different teams people use - everyone’s efforts to build the best bulldozer. And it’s fun sharing your own team, discussing what worked and didn’t.
I didn’t get sucked in to the story. I didn’t really feel like I was fighting for anything. I just kicked ass with my silent group of soldiers, advanced through the cut scenes as quickly as possible, and moved on to the next battlefield.
On the surface, it looked like a pretty in depth story compared to other RPGs around that time period. But since my team wasn’t part of the story (aside from Ramza), I didn’t really pay much attention.
To be fair, I had several problems with FFT before I even started playing it. It was one of the earliest RPGs I played, and the second FF after FF7. I was expecting it to focus more on the Fantasy elements and less in the historical drama.
The character designs compounded it; they were far too cute for such a serious story. I assume they were going for an “authentic medieval art look”, but they really should’ve had much more realistic artwork. It was like trying to take “Macbeth” seriously if it’s being played by a cast of smurfs.
And as Cid said, the translation didn’t help. Also, it had too many characters (who tended to look too much alike and who had similar-sounding names) about whom much was not revealed. I get now that the focus was the story rather than the characters, but back then it was baffling.
But perhaps it’s biggest problem was that t was actually TWO unrelated stories tangled up- it starts with the war intrigue of the Lion War but then it turns in the Lucavi’s quest to resurrect St. Ajora. To this day I’m not clear on how much influence the Lucavi had in the events, what with their possession of several characters.
And of course, the killing blow for me was watching the end credits only to find out that Ovelia dies trying to kill Delita. Not only was that unexpected, but it ruined the story for me; since saving her was such a big plot point for much of the game. I think the writers wanted the story to be a Shakespearian tragedy a bit too much.
However, I did love the character creation system, so much I played it again later just to try to get one character of every Job in the party (and I succeeded.) I also enjoyed the Strategy-based battles. (And no, the second time I didn’t bother to watch the final scene.)
I may replay the game someday just to try to “get” the story better… maybe when Lion Wars becomes available in something other than the PSP.
I agree with most of what you just said so I don’t really have a response for you Cid.
Wil: The Shakespearean angle it took is why I think a lot of people assume the story must be deep and complex even though it’s not really, imo.
I liked the character creation system too with the exception of a few small things. I didn’t like the fact that leveling up wasn’t beneficial at all and probably actually made the game harder. I didn’t like the fact that most of the techs were garbage and relegated what could’ve been a complex system to four or five key skills and classes. And I didn’t like how unpredictable and erratic the rotation of turns was. But in general, I liked the way characters were built and the way battles were fought.
The turn rotation is determined by each character’s speed stat, it’s a constant without the smallest bit of randomness and learning how to predict it is basic for effectively making use of just about any charged skill. Or if you can’t do even that, the game even allows you to see the turn order with just pressing one button.
The only way leveling could possibly make your game harder was if you only leveled a single character and then started doing random battles with enemies far above the rest of your party, which was mostly impossible to do in a serious degree unless you dedicated at least half an hour to doing just that on purpose. Story battles had fixed levels that would not change regardless of how high yours where. In addition every single character gains the regular stat boost when leveling, though obviously differing depending on the class or, in the plot character cases, the person. Of course, you have to use common sense. If you’ve had a character as a priest for half the game and suddenly switched him to monk, of course his attack power will blow.
And the amount of possible effective combinations using different class skills is huge. It’s true that you’ve got to be a retard to use Oracles and Mediators, and some classes are there only to leech of reaction and support skills (Archers are pretty much only good for Concentrate), but there’s still a really big number of possible mixes between several different classes in both physical and magical fields. And that’s not even bringing in the hero characters with their own practical skills that make otherwise useless classes extremely useful (Beowulf rocks even though he’s essentially an Oracle on crack). Really, the game’s easy as hell to break with just about every possible combination. Or at least fun to see when you get flying nuns calculating Holy on the entire field and healing themselves at the same time.
I found that the turn order list wasn’t always accurate. I’m not saying the game picked characters completely at random to do actions, but sometimes all you could do was pick a move and hope.
I did have one character above the rest. I wasn’t trying to, that’s just the way it played out for some reason.
Yeah, mediators and oracles are the kind of classes I’m talking about. I can remember samurai being pretty useless too, though ninjas rocked. Most of the monk techniques were worthless but the class itself is useful for a pretty long time. It’s not always the entire class that sucks, just a majority of its skills. Monster recruits were fairly useless too. Thieves could steal a few good items, but for fighting they were pointless. Archers, pointless.
Most of the monk techniques were worthless but the class itself is useful for a pretty long time.
Really? O_o I have Martial Arts on Ramza pretty much constantly throughout the entire game. Revive, Chakra, Aurablast, and Shockwave are all great moves.
Thieves could steal a few good items, but for fighting they were pointless.
Yeah, Thief is a great class to level up during side battles (e.g. while doing Errands) but you can’t go into a serious fight with it. I generally learn all the Steal abilities, then stick them on a Dragoon or some such. The steal abilities themselves don’t really go down in utility on other classes, and they’re invaluable (read: the only way, sometimes) for getting advanced equipment.
(Beowulf rocks even though he’s essentially an Oracle on crack).
Beowulf is even more broken than Orlandeu IMO. And Cloud is completely useless. Maybe if he was a little faster and didn’t start at level 1. >_<
I agree that most of the titles have gone a little off the deep end now and some of the re-makes are kind of stupid but, i recently picked up ff tactics war of the lions and i have to say it is pretty amazing but being for the psp it dosnt add up to my favs!(ffI, ffII, ffiv, ffvi, ffvii,ffviii, ffix,ffx,ffxii).
I think as we get older, they get less exciting. However, the younger kids i see playing them find them to be very exciting. My niece, who is 8, enjoys playing FFXII more than I do. The me of 5 years ago would have played FFXII until my thumbs got sore(like they did when i played FF1 about 15 years ago). However, it takes more than flash explosions, really cool battle scenes, and a hot furry to hold my interest in a game.
I found FFXII to be too much in immitation of FFXI, they tried to make it feel more like a MMORPG, and while they may have succeeded, I just didn’t like that many aspects of the actual gameplay.
my #1 complain with FFXII would be that the character models don’t change when you change their gear. their weapons and shields did, but that’s all, and I didn’t like it. #2 complaint is there are so few options when it comes to character individuality. Similar to FFVIII, the characters are all more or less copies of eachother statwise, and you just shuffle between. However, unlike FFVIII, there are fewer options you can choose from to give them indiviual jobs in a party. If the Technics were more useful, it would have worked, but the only good ones were Libra and Charge, and you get those for every character, or else they suck.
I like FFX-2, i do hate the % story line complete thing, but nothings perfect. It was faster paced than most RPG’s, and i liked that about it.
I also enjoyed FF6: Dirge of Cerberus, it was an interesting mix, but i simply couldn’t bring myself to play it through a2nd time on a harder difficulty. I tried, went “WTF, no Death Penalty ? shuts down”
And Cloud is completely useless. Maybe if he was a little faster and didn’t start at level 1. >_<