Holy shit! Russian conspiracies

http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,1403681,00.html

And this is in addition to the election changes which Putin has brought forth. Aparently, people don’t vote for their governors anymore, but the governors are assigned by the Kremlin and major corporations like Yukos are seized by the state. While that’s unrelated, these are just other points about what kind of stuff is going on in Russia. Old habits die hard aparently. What’s particularly interesting is that someone died from what was probably used on the now Ukranian president. It definetly brings into contrast the Russian response to the Ukrainian election we heard about in the news (they congratulated the soviet backed “winner” even though the election had been marred by fraud). I think the point that they’d kickstart the war in Chechnya is self-explanatory considering the shit that’s happening because of that. Remember the school bombing last summer? Yeah. All in all, this is chilling.

Don’t know if this helps but I saw this awhile ago. http://www.turkishpress.com/world/news.asp?id=050118191328.cuf9dqow.xml

A comrade of mine also said

From Papergut

Communists are not alone. Three out of four Russian parties are demanding the ousting - communists, patriotic socialists from “Rodina” faction and even Kremlin’s puppet Nazi party LDPR, so it is very likely that they will succeed…

Oh, for fuck’s sake, this is bullshit. Similar systems of assigning governors currently exist in Italy and the Netherlands, and other countries. As for the seizure of Yukos, it was completely justified, and it’s a shame Putin didn’t do it any sooner. The head of Yukos, one Khodorkovsky, had stolen the company in the early nineties, by using his connections with the Communist party to “buy” the company in a rigged auction using government funds, and then single-handedly seizing possession of it. He then ripped off his own shareholders multiple times, and attempted to buy his way into political power. He’s Kenny Boy Lay on crack.

As for the Ukrainian election, the Western media was tirelessly pushing the narrative that Yuschenko’s victory was “stolen” by the “Soviet-backed candidate.” In reality, however, much of the fraud was actually concentrated in the western regions that supported the current Ukrainian “president”:

http://www.oscewatch.org/CountryReport.asp?CountryID=22&ReportID=230

Yuschenko was heavily favoured by every Western country because he pushed for EU membership, and is likely to allow American military bases on Ukrainian soil. In fact, he was given millions of dollars by American organizations, supported by the American government, as was exposed by Congressman Ron Paul in December. Yuschenko’s supporters, in particular, were paid $40 a day to sit outside and “demonstrate.” Then, when Yuschenko lost anyway, Europe sent over 10,000 “international observers” specifically to those areas which supported his opponent, while sending few if any observers to the pro-Yuschenko areas, in order to ensure the result they wanted next time. The only thing that’s “chilling” here is that the West is openly interfering in the affairs of Russia’s neighbours, with the intent of economic aggression and military expansionism.

As for that “poisoning” story, it’s not even internally consistent. Yuschenko himself claims he was poisoned during a dinner on September 5, and that he developed symptoms on the following day. Unfortunately for that story, it can take months or years for the symptoms of such poisoning to develop. Furthermore, the whole diagnosis of “dioxin poisoning” was established by one specific clinic, one of whose staff resigned shortly afterward, claiming that he was urged to falsify the results of Yuschenko’s blood tests. Alcohol poisoning is a more likely possibility.

The real cause of the unbridled hostility toward Putin that can be found in the Western press has to do with the fact that Putin is making some effort to oppose the neoconservative plans to establish global American dominance. He opposed the neoconservatives’ pet war in Iraq, he strives to pay off Russia’s debt and keep Russia’s assets from being looted by thieves like Khodorkovsky, and in general he pursues an independent policy. The neoconservatives don’t like it when anyone pursues an independent policy, much less the leader of a country whose nuclear stockpile still makes it a formidable military rival. As a result, they do everything they can to demonize Putin, and are willing to give a public forum and financial backing to anyone who will accuse him of wrongdoing, no matter how little evidence there is to support the accusations. As John Laughland reported in the Guardian, Putin’s biggest enemies in the West are the same neoconservatives that are usually so vehement about fighting Islamic terrorism:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1299318,00.html

I don’t know what conspiracy to believe…

Believe them all just to be safe. :hahaha; :thud:

Listen to Sepiroth Katana, that’s not to say Putin is only a good thing: He is censoring the media, and he has done little to nothing to end the conflict in Chechenia ( Unless you count warfare bording on genocide as ending ).

conspiracies?
It should be expected. Russia is now ruled by an intriguing mix of KGB(political control) and Mafia(financial control).

two recently published articles identify 26 individuals, already in government or soon to be occupying responsible positions, as Putin appointees (see table below). Almost half of them have been identified as former or current KGB/FSB intelligence officers. The percentage may be even higher, because only sparse data are available on the backgrounds of other recent appointees
and

Since organized crime controls some 40 percent of GDP
http://www.ncoic.com/putin2_3.htm

Sephiroth Katana
Как дела товарищ ?

Time magazine wrote on Sunday, with reference to anonymous representatives of U.S. secret services, that the number of Russian intelligence agents in the United States has recently exceeded 100, which corresponds to the number during the Cold War.
http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/0/28.html?id_issue=10744555

I would like to see more cooperation between Russia and China (political and economic) though. Just to counterbalance the US world hegemony.

For all the accusations of “censorship” that Western politicians and pundits issue against Putin on a daily basis, it’s easier for Putin’s political rivals to get on the ballot in Russia than it is for third parties to get on the ballot here. The worst attacks on journalists have always come from the anti-Putin oligarchs, like the recent shooting death of Paul Khlebnikov, a journalist who attempted to investigate the oligarch Boris Berezovsky. As for Chechnya, Putin didn’t start the war; the conflict recommenced after Chechen fighters, having reached a diplomatic agreement with Yeltsin, broke that agreement by invading and looting neighbouring Dagestan, a whole other province in Russian territory that had no separatist aims. An equivalent situation would be if Idaho suddenly decided to secede from the United States, and invaded Utah to add to its territory, and in the process received support from, say, Europe.

even Kremlin’s puppet Nazi party LDPR
What the fuck? LDPR is just a personal vehicle for its founder Zhirinovsky, an opportunist who only wants to sit in Parliament for as long as he can. It is a political joke that has no real purpose, or ideology, or affiliation, other than that.

Buy why be the one to finish it through bloodshed?

Well, the most vocal and highly placed of Putin’s critics are working to deny him better options. For instance, the neoconservatives recently sponsored a “revolution” in Gruzia (commonly referred to as “Georgia” in the Western press for some reason); as a result, the country is now ruled by a pro-American strongman, who has spoken in favour of a NATO presence in his country. At the same time, Russian intelligence has frequently seen that foreign fighters (many of the “Chechen” fighters are Arabs of varying origin) use the Gruzian mountains as a conduit to get into Russia and carry out attacks. Meanwhile, the leaders of these terrorist groups have asylum in places like London. This presents a clear threat to Russia’s territorial integrity, and forces Russia to keep its own military presence in that area.

Yuschenko was heavily favoured by every Western country because he pushed for EU membership, and is likely to allow American military bases on Ukrainian soil. In fact, he was given millions of dollars by American organizations, supported by the American government, as was exposed by Congressman Ron Paul in December. Yuschenko’s supporters, in particular, were paid $40 a day to sit outside and “demonstrate.” Then, when Yuschenko lost anyway, Europe sent over 10,000 “international observers” specifically to those areas which supported his opponent, while sending few if any observers to the pro-Yuschenko areas, in order to ensure the result they wanted next time. The only thing that’s “chilling” here is that the West is openly interfering in the affairs of Russia’s neighbours, with the intent of economic aggression and military expansionism.

As for that “poisoning” story, it’s not even internally consistent. Yuschenko himself claims he was poisoned during a dinner on September 5, and that he developed symptoms on the following day. Unfortunately for that story, it can take months or years for the symptoms of such poisoning to develop. Furthermore, the whole diagnosis of “dioxin poisoning” was established by one specific clinic, one of whose staff resigned shortly afterward, claiming that he was urged to falsify the results of Yuschenko’s blood tests. Alcohol poisoning is a more likely possibility.

Just curious if you happen to have a source on hand for this stuff, SK

Speaking of Chechnya:

The official Russian death toll was reported late last year at around 4,500 troops, although a committee of soldiers’ mothers estimates the true toll may be three times higher because the Moscow figure does not include people who died of their wound in hospitals outside Chechnya.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_3-2-2005_pg7_53

What about Chechens (most of them civilians)? Well, one of those days we’ll get the whole picture.
Now I am thinking about Iraq.
Edit:Chechen death toll

Over 80 bodies of young Chechen men were found each month. Russian
human rights groups estimate the civilian death toll in the two wars in Chechnya at between 80,000 and 150,000
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_26-7-2002_pg4_11

It is difficult to find links to the information on the Internet, because these events transpired in eastern Europe, and articles from European sources are often not translated or not archived online, or only published in print to begin with. However, some information can nonetheless be easily confirmed:

  1. Yuschenko is likely to allow American military bases on Ukrainian soil (i.e. NATO membership).

Reported in the British Spectator by John Laughland, 9/6/04.

  1. Money from American organizations funded by the American government was being funneled into Ukraine.

Congressman Ron Paul’s statement: http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2004/cr120704.htm

(The Associated Press also reported on this: “U.S. Money Helped Opposition in Ukraine”, 12/10/04)

  1. Yuschenko’s supporters were paid.

Numerous reports came in through Russian news agencies (Regnum, Rian) in the couple of weeks leading up to the last Ukrainian election on 12/26. For instance, on 12/16, Regnum reported that Yuschenko supporters were picketing their own headquarters because they were not receiving their promised food and money. On 12/20, it was reported that Yuschenko supporters were going around pro-Yanukovich areas and buying up people’s passports (i.e. depriving them of necessary ID).

I’m also in somewhat of a position to comment on this directly, as an acquaintance of mine was in Kiev, Ukraine at the time, went to the Yuschenko headquarters, and received $40 to participate in the demonstrations, which he didn’t do. Hey, it was free money.

  1. Europe sent over 10,000 “international observers”…

“12,000 pairs of eyes,” Brian Spadora, Herald News, 12/26.

  1. …but exhibited double standards in its “observing.”

http://www.bhhrg.org/CountryReport.asp?CountryID=22&ReportID=240

  1. Yuschenko’s account of his own poisoning makes no sense.

(Regnum reported on 12/17 that Yuschenko claimed he was poisoned during that 9/5 dinner.)

  1. Furthermore, the whole diagnosis of “dioxin poisoning” was established by one specific clinic, one of whose staff resigned shortly afterward, claiming that he was urged to falsify the results of Yuschenko’s blood tests.

(This is the site of the German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine, and thus is in German. Another account of the intimidating tactics used by the Yuschenko campaign can be found in the December 10 edition of the French newspaper <i>Le Figaro.</i>)

  1. Alcohol poisoning is a more likely possibility.

Dr. Stephen Boyle has raised this possibility:


Chad Nagle of BHHRG has discussed it as well:
http://www.oscewatch.org/LatestNews.asp?ArticleID=58
http://www.oscewatch.org/LatestNews.asp?ArticleID=55

shit fuck. i feel like this is the denouement of a front mission game or something

Cool, thanks SK

Actually, I’ve never heard of alocohol poisoning having the effect it has and I have no clue why it would. That’s something I contest. The rosacea condition is an interesting guess, but we’d have to wonder about other potential symptoms he displayed and why its occurring so suddenly. As the guy points out himself, its essentially impossible to make a clear diagnosis without even having seen the guy first had or all the documentation. I think you should be a little more careful with what you present about the potential poisoning.

SK just made a small mistake, Sin. The sites he listed for me blame alcoholism, not alcohol poisoning.

The core diagnosis, pancreatitis (decomposition of the pancreatic gland tissue), is caused by alcohol–particularly in “binge drinking”–65-75% of the time
Well, Boyle actually extrapolates the alcohol diagnosis from the documentation. Yuschenko’s main ailment, discovered in his diagnosis, was pancreatitis, which can be caused by chronic alcohol consumption, and also by heavy binge drinking, which he certainly engaged in at the dinner on 9/5. His illness flared up shortly after he drank too much on that day, which is why I used the term “alcohol poisoning” (though that may have been medically inaccurate; what I meant was “excessive alcohol consumption at the dinner on 9/5”). Moreover, the diagnosis stated that he had an enlarged liver, also a consequence of chronic alcohol abuse. The whole point of this discussion is to illustrate that the “poisoning” theory is full of holes, and has plausible alternatives.

Ok so the guy was disfigured because of binge drinking, which certainly would seem odd at a dinner of the type he was at, because of a skin condition he had that manifested itself when the guy had already lived a couple decades and most likely had already been drinking a lot if his drinking had led to the liver and pancreas problems that you’re saying the drinking had caused BUT without having the skin manifestation for all these decades. Alcohol abuse needs to be severe and continuous for a person to display liver and pancreas problems. I don’t think its plausible that that particular dinner suddenly and dramatically tipped things over like they did.

I do agree we probably can’t be sure of what happened if what you say about that one lab being corrupt is true though. However, this isn’t one of the plausible ones, imo.

Excellent links SK. Thanks.
Now, talk about conspiracies.

Latest news from Gruzia (Georgia):

Georgia’s Prime Minister found dead
Georgia’s Interior Minister says Prime Minister Zurab Zhvania has died of apparent gas poisoning.
News of Mr Zhvania’s death has stunned the mountainous Caucasus republic of 5 million, which has been hit by separatist tensions and is still recovering from a car bombing on Tuesday.
http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200502/s1295472.htm

My friends went to Ukraine about two years ago, to visit their relatives and get back to their roots. One thing that shocked them was the contrast between what they knew about Ukraine and what they saw there. Having luxury cars on the streets was a surprise. A Hammer in Kiev? Their relatives just bought an apartment; private property is a relatively new concept there. So the view from the balcony was exceptional (Dnieper river), but they had no money to renovate and the apartment looked like shit. The stores were full of merchandise and customers, but most of them were just looking and not buying. No money. Well, at least Ukranians have same products for sale as the “rich” countries. There is even a McDonald’s on Khreschatyk (main street).
Oh yah and I got a nice present – a T-shirt that says Україна in huge yellow letters.