And on top of it, technically, some of the abuse stuff we’ve been hearing about could technically fall into the category of “stress positions” and that kinda thing. This is symbolic of Rumsfeld and co covering their asses and using their peons as scape goats.

Oh, please, just fuck off and admit you screwed up.

…I’m adressing Rumsfeld & chums here, of course, and not Sin. :wink:

I think its ironic that Rumsfeld says he accepts full responsibility because obviously as statements like these imply, he is responsible, but also because he refuses to take any real responsibility by atoning for his fuck ups, even when other people get killed and it movitas the locals to really not like the US.

Wait, isn’t it the highest authority that takes responsibility for the troops s/he’s in command of…?

Yeah, but he’s gotta make a statement. Aside from the pictures of the soldiers doing random weird shit to some prisoners, our methods abide by the rules. Interrogation’s not a pretty thing, it’s not supposed to be nice, but at least we aren’t beheading people.

That still doesn’t make it any better, Alfred. Those are fucked up, plain and simple, and that’s partly why it made a big deal on the news. Kinda like, I dunno, beheading people :stuck_out_tongue: Just the fact that we’re doing terrible things to a lesser degree doesn’t make it better. If a murderer goes from killing 100 people a day down to 25 people a day, well guess what? He’s STILL KILLING PEOPLE :stuck_out_tongue:

It’s AlDred. I’m not alfred. =p
I’m not saying we’re doing nothing wrong, and your example is a good one. HOWEVER, the point is we’re not killing any POWs. We are interrogating them. Again, it’s not pretty, but it’s far from illegal.
They’re getting starved and sleep deprivation, along with undoubtedly unhealthy doses of truth juice. Cruel, painful…yes. Lethal, terrible…no.

Being forced to assume sexual positions with another male and being piled up on eachother naked is interrigation? Have you seen the pictures? It seems they were doing this for their own amusement.

Actually, we’re not abiding by the rules. We’re violating the Geneva Convention, despite what Rumsfield has to say. What’s being done is stripping away any humanity these people have and systematically spitting on their beliefs. As the article said, it’s obvious the scenarios they were put in were well researched as they directly humiliated Muslim practices. That sort of stuff violates human rights, and violating human rights violates the Geneva Convention so…

Also, what Rumsfeld said about the terrorists is bullshit. The Geneva Convention still applies to them, despite the fact it isn’t an officially declared war. Hell, if you want to be technical, it should apply to them since the Bush administration did declare a war on terrorists.

Actually, it is against the rules of war. Some of the things we have to do is protect them and leave them with most of their stuff and treat them in a humane way. Such as we aren’t allowed to undress them, unless it is to say take a knife off their leg, something that is dangerous to us if we don’t take it. Even then, all their stuff has to be marked so they can be given it later (except weapons and stuff like that). They have to be given adequet food, shelter, and medical care. Such as we can get is pretty big trouble if we are transporting a prisoner to a prison (such as if we caught him after a roadside bombing) and he gets injured or killed. It is our responsibility to protect the person. Bottomline, it is against the rules of war to sleep deprive and starve the prisoners.

The problem with the scandal is that people are acting like the soldiers will go unpunished. These guys will be punished pretty badly. I have a friend in the brig right now for burning a EPWs hand. A one time thing has him in the brig. He’ll be out in 1 or 2 months, but he lost pay and was demoted. He also won’t get some benefits when he gets out of the military. These guys did worse stuff repeatedly, so I can only imagien what’ll happen with them. However, they will be punished.

All he does is babble!

Let’s not say “we,” let’s say “them.” It is only a small portion of the troops commiting the crimes.

Also, Rumsfeld is right about the terrorists. They aren’t protected by the Geneva Convention. They aren’t classified as prisoners of war. If you need an example of how loose the classifcations are, just look at our snipers. They aren’t protected by the Geneva Convention either. If a sniper is caught, all we can do is go in a rescue them (snipers work in pairs), but the captors don’t have to treat the snipers nicely or keep them alive. Terrorists aren’t protected, I forget the specific classification, but they aren’t covered.

Might as well say “we”. To Iraq, and to those prisoners, that small portion of troops is the U.S. as a whole.

So if they say all Americans are “Spawns of Satan”, we should start calling ourselves “Spawns of Satan?” So those people that died in 9/11 deserved to die since the terrorists said it is best for Americans to die. I see, America is worng about everything and the terrorists are right. Thanks for clearing things up for me Shinobi. I guess the courts are gonna be busy for the next million years while they court-martial every single American for these atrocities.

Where the fuck are you pulling this from? I was making a point that Iraq sees those soldiers as a representation as the U.S. as a whole, and that is all.

To many, there are things far worse then death. I am not saying that beheading someone is not terrable, is not wrong. It is, but so is humiliation. So is any act of inhumanity. It shouldn’t come down to “Oh well they are more wrong, so we can be wrong too.” No, then you are only sinking. What right does the agressor or the defender have to do such terrable acts? None. I find is so ironic that with the title of this thread, people in it are able to make MORE excuses as to why they aren’t as bad. Bad is bad, wrong is wrong. I thought everyone learned that in preschool.


Go look for the pictures of that Iraqi who was beaten to death by Americans and packed in ice. They’re currently aware of at least 25 such murders.

Ten soldiers cannot just go on an isolated sadistic spree and take pictures and videos for a period of <i>several months</i> without the knowledge, and consent, of their superiors. Those are just some of the pictures that CBS released, and they’re a result of systemic rot in the occupation’s policy, not “a few bad apples” among the soldiers. As for “the rules,” there’s a lot of American-run prisons across the world that exist in a total legal black hole - they’re not in America, so they don’t have to follow American laws, and they’re outside of the jurisdiction of whatever country they’re in, so they’re really not answerable to anyone at all, and no one knows what goes on inside them.

Since when is it a huge mark of achievement to be better than al-Qaeda? Although I really don’t know why it’s so much better to get beaten to death than to get beheaded.

Ok, like I said in an earlier post you didn’t read, ASIDE FROM THAT, our shit is going by the book. As far as the interrogation itself, I’m not saying that it’s all well and good, but if you use some common sense, you’ll see the difference between interrogating and executing POWs.
Eden99, yes, bad is bad, but there’s a line between bad and completely fucking disgusting. I’m not saying it’s right for US soldiers to have disgraced the Iraqi soldiers that way, they deserve the court martial they’re getting, but life is the most precious thing there is, there is nothing worth more than life, and the people that beheaded that man only used the mistreatment as as excuse to do it.
They don’t usually bother with excuses for blowing up buildings or busses, they’re just playing off of whatever they can get, and it happened to be the POW mistreatment.

Point. My bad on that.

Ah, well then, my bad once more. That doesn’t make what’s being done to them much better.

Er… no? Sleep deprivation and starvation for interrogation isn’t by the books. That once again violates the Geneva Convention. As was said:

That is your oppinion. It might be a accepted one in where you live, but try to remember many places in the world do not feel that way. To many honour is far more important then life. At the end of World War 2, when Japan surrendered and their Empire told them to endure the unendurable many still preformed their suicide rutual hara-kiri to keep their honour. Is it so hard to believe that maybe other people in diffrent parts of the world can value things diffrent from yours?

To you life may be of the highest importance. I can not say for sure what theirs is, as I am no expert in islamism, but I believe they hold honour up there very high. You struck at their honour, a value they hold high, and they struck at your induviduals life, something you hold in high regard.

Simply it comes down to both are wrong and bad, as I said before, and you shouldn’t draw the line before or after death.