Does consciousness exist independantly of the body?

[Seraphim_Ephyon]

Ah, but on the whole “God loves us too much to let X happen to us,” if that’s the case, then why did God kick us out of Eden, let Eve be tempted, let Lucifer fall? You could continue it all the way to the start of the world. And even now. Why do we suffer? Why is there continuing evil? God apparently has his own plans for us.

If you start checking the bible you’ll find thousands and thousands of things that don’t make sense or don’t fit with the general “Big man loves us all” theme. And maybe it’s just me, but we’ve been using “god’s plan” as an explanation for unexplainable stuff for several thousands of years. If God exists and I go to heaven, my first question is going to be “So what’s the frickin’ plan already!?”

EDIT: Non-existence is defined in physics as the absence of time and space. Without time there is no space and without space there is no time. Thinking about non-existence is beyond our four-dimensional percepcion, as we cannot picture an absolute nothingness.

[Cala]

Ah, but maybe there is. Take what we define as “existence” and take the opposite. “Existene” is “being in a specific location at a given point in time”? Well, “non-existence” could possibly “not being in a specific location at a give point in time.”

Then again, my mind likes it. To hell with y’all.

EDIT: I never said the whole “God’s plan” is a good thing. I don’t believe in it myself (I’m an atheist). I mean, look at the Old Testament. Half of it is God killing shit.

[Setz]

Cala. I meant not existing. I can’t think straight right now.

Can you imagine what you’ll see if you stop existing?

[Cavelcade]

Actually, it’s Jesus who loves us. God doesn’t really, but he’s vengeful. But the answer for all the bad things is free will. Ain’t that a bitch. But if you look, form most of the bad things, something good has eventually come.
And Setz, you won’t see. That’s the point.

[Setz]

Actually, it’s Jesus who loves us. God doesn’t really, but he’s vengeful. But the answer for all the bad things is free will. Ain’t that a bitch. But if you look, form most of the bad things, something good has eventually come.

I was banned from the chat forever. Nothing good has come outta it.

; . ;

[Cala]

You’ll see nothing if you stop existing, since you’ll have nothing to “see” with.

And Jesus is the whole Trinity and Jesus-is-God thing. So Jesus is God and God is Jesus.

EDIT: Actually, the chat is a much happier place without you Setz. Although we could probably use a few more bannings. >.>

[Cavelcade]

Sure it has. You can’t be banned again

[Setz]

You’ll see nothing if you stop existing, since you’ll have nothing to “see” with.

And Jesus is the whole Trinity and Jesus-is-God thing. So Jesus is God and God is Jesus.

Grarg! That’s not what I meant… it’s really difficult to explain.

Edit: Darkness, you have a point. Cala, you don’t.

[Cala]

So take the time and explain it. That’s why we have these nifty little boxes to type in. We can take our time and explain it out.

[The_984]

SG summarized one of Pinker’s points. The debate you’re referring to, Hades, is the presence of the ghost in the machine, the idea of a soul. The problem with discussing the soul is figuring out when “ensoulment” occurs. Is it when the egg is fertilized by the sperm? When you’re a blastula going to the uterine wall? Or when you’re undergoing gastrulation to develop the tube connecting your future ass and mouth? You can’t really start specifying. The concept of consicousness, personality, soul, is a highly romanticized one and from a scientific standpoint, it is extremely hard to define because of what SG said and many other arguments.

I believe the old Roman Catholic thought on that issue was that ensoulment occurred at the time of the “quickening,” the time when the fetus is first felt to move, about 12-14 weeks into the pregnancy. That’s partly why abortions used to be deemed okay if they happened before the quickening. But, that is merely one religion’s thoughts on when ensoulment occurs. However, ensoulment is a more religious question rather than scientific, so it felt apt to mention it.

[Setz]

So take the time and explain it. That’s why we have these nifty little boxes to type in. We can take our time and explain it out.

Will in the morning. I’m tired. So instead of explaining right now, I’ll go play FFX. k tnx

[Cala]

Oh you bitch. I wanted to argue. ARGUE, D’YA HEAR ME?

[Seraphim_Ephyon]

Can you imagine what you’ll see if you stop existing?

You wouldn’t see anything, no afterlife, no empty void, no black place you would NOT EXIST.

And check my last edited post for my take on non-existence physics mumbo jumbo.

[Setz]

RETORT

I’d love to argue 'n debate. But it’ll have to be in the morning. Sorry Cala.

; . ;

[Cala]

Seraphim: Stop stealing my answers.

Setz: Damn you.

[Seraphim_Ephyon]

Seraphim: Stop stealing my answers.

I typed that before seeing yours. This thread is moving too fast for me

[Lex]

EDIT: Oh, and as for that whole “very first thing to come into existence” mind-fuck. I spent a while thinking about that a couple days ago and I came to the conclusion that time must work in a circle. That means that there would never have been a very first thing, particles and energy would have always been there and once our universe dies, time will loop and the universe will be reborn.

Are you suggesting that we, or some other being in this universe, will cause the Big Bang?

Ah, but on the whole “God loves us too much to let X happen to us,” if that’s the case, then why did God kick us out of Eden, let Eve be tempted, let Lucifer fall? You could continue it all the way to the start of the world. And even now. Why do we suffer? Why is there continuing evil? God apparently has his own plans for us.

As for the whole not being able to comprehend X, then maybe we just need a new way to look at it.

God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden because they betrayed his trust. It takes a while to trust again after someone’s broken it.

[Cavelcade]

Er…since time and space are part of the same thing, then time can’t exist to loop without space therefore that argument is either invalid or poorly phrased. Or I’m slow.

[Seraphim_Ephyon]

Are you suggesting that we, or some other being in this universe, will cause the Big Bang?

One of the theories based on the Big Crunch theory (Yes, a theory on a theory) suggest that the concentrated force of supergravity in the final second of the universe may cause an explosion that may very well spawn a new one.

[Lex]

Yes, I’ve heard of the Big Crunch theory. It fits in with the Universal Oscillation Theory. I was just commenting on what Urkani said about time looping. I guess you’re both saying the same thing.