Curiosity regarding fanfiction realism...

The Core Media Forum
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Of note; if this is inappropriate for this particular forum, please let me know where it’s moved…

I’ve come here with a bit of a request, if nobody minds; this is particularly aimed at the writer known as Archone.

I arrived at this site through the link to his version of the Shining Force story–“Behind the Screen”, I think it was called. The authenticity with which he forged the combat scenes–particularly in reference to the true-to-life medieval combat manuevers and gruesome injuries that our heroes often sustained–was truly astounding, and (bashfully admitted) occasionally hard for me to follow at times. :);

But anyway, I would like to know this much: I utilize medieval combat in certain of my fics as well, and I lack the knowledge to make them as realistic as Archone’s works…

In particular, I seek enlightenment on both the basic and finer points of combatting an opponent in melee while using a medieval-style one-handed warhammer. Yes, I know, it’s a bit of an off-the-wall request, but I could find no suitable advisory articles anywhere online–it turns out that the war hammer was one of the less common medieval weapons, or so my own logic has seemed to gather…

In any case, could any of you enlighten me on this particular subject–or, at least, refer me to a person/article that can?

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I’d suggest hitting the books - librarys are great for that sorta thing.

You can talk to Sir Percival about this as well, he majors in Medieval history and would probably be happy to fill your ears with stuff like that.

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I am afraid that I cannot provide you with absolutely accurate information on this subject; I can only make educated guesses based on what I know. Unfortunately, much of the information about European mediaeval weaponry comes directly from primary source documents (training manuals for squires or men at arms) which neither you nor I can easily access. Since scholars debate this subject uncommonly, there is not much literature, either.

Since the warhammer was neither a very common nor a very popular weapon in the later Middle Ages (1250 – 1500; my period of speciality), there is not much information about this weapon which has come to my attention. At best, I can conjecture about warhammers using what I know about maces. If you are willing to do a little research, a look into the weaponry of the “barbarian” Germanic peoples (Angles, Franks, Visigoths, etc…) of the early Middle Ages might contain some information about warhammers. You might also look into the presence of the warhammer in mediaeval Asian warfare; it might exist there, too.

I am confident that, using a few basic facts about maces, you can portray combat with relative accuracy.

  1. The mace is a bludgeoning weapon. Against heavily-armoured enemies, it cannot hope to inflict real wounds unless it attacks an unarmoured area of the body; the mace is primarily used to knock down opponents with the force of the blow. If the enemy has his head exposed, then that is a prime target for a mace-wielder, who would endeavour to crush the skull with his weapon.

  2. The key to making an effective attack with a heavy weapon like a mace, as with many heavy mediaeval European weapons, lies in momentum. A mace thus needs to be kept in swinging motion. If the wielder stops, then he lets down his guard somewhat, because it takes energy to get the mace swinging again. Also, because the wielder must swing the mace, he must have sufficient room about him (at least 1 m/3 ft. I should think). In other words, a mace is not going to be very effective in a tight melee.

  3. A mace, like other heavy weapons, is more powerful when used on horseback because the mace carries not only momentum from the wielder swinging it, but also from the horse charging.

I hope that my guesses can help you.

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Medieval Swordsmanship. Clements, (John?). Paladin Press.

Clements deals with swords, it’s true, but there are sections about how swordsmen would fight other weapons, which entails a rough idea of how to use them.

And watch Conquest on the History Channel, if you can. There are a few episodes on medieval combat, although they occasionally bang swords together edge-on-edge.

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Archone doesn’t come here as much, I’m afraid. It would be better to mail him, though I think he’s having e-mail troubles… that I was going to have sorted out with him. 'Scuse me. scampers off to get work done

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“If you are willing to do a little research, a look into the weaponry of the “barbarian” Germanic peoples (Angles, Franks, Visigoths, etc…) of the early Middle Ages might contain some information about warhammers. You might also look into the presence of the warhammer in mediaeval Asian warfare; it might exist there, too.”

nod. Aye, I understand–so ultimately, the goal is the same; what I’ll need to do is go hunt for a library…

Thanks for the assistance, all. Much appreciated. :slight_smile:

By the way, Percival; you also mentioned above that a mace, due to the fact that it’s a bludgeoning weapon, couldn’t hope to inflict too much damage against a heavily armored target; this would make sense due to the cushioning under said armor…

But in that light, what weapon honestly could? Logically, slashing and piercing attacks would be turned aside…(and yes, I’m mentally assuming that it’s full-plate armor, since that’s the heaviest I myself can imagine.)

Wouldn’t a bludgeoning weapon be one’s best bet in such a situation?

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Just thought I would throw in my (probably totally wrong) opinion on this matter. The bludgeoning power of a warhammer was used primarily against an armored foe. This is why most examples of war-hammers come down to a point on one side. While the wielder had little chance of dealing a killing blow with such a weapon they could cause the armor to deform under the force of the impact, causing quite extensive damage to the defender (bones breaking and the steel casing deforming and piercing flesh) Heavier armor helped against this, hence the “arms race” of the middle ages. I agree with Sir Percival on all other points however.

Sir Percival: Correct me please, I have probably made a mistake somewhere along the lines, I look forward to an intersting discussion.

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I’d say the best weapons to use against armored foes are the weapons that made that armor obsolete in the first place: The early singleshot flintlock pistols.

Also I’d imagine crossbows, as long as you could keep the proper distance between operator and target, would probably have sufficient power to pierce armor.

Plus you could always target the joints with any melee weapon; in order to allow flexibility and mobility those points always had to be less protected.

And if you hit a guy the head hard enough with anything, helmet or no, he’s going to be disoriented, concussed, and confused.

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I believe that the knights once tried to get crossbows banned because of the ease someone could kill with them.

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“Plus you could always target the joints with any melee weapon; in order to allow flexibility and mobility those points always had to be less protected.”

Was this true even when applied to full-plate armor? At the pinnacle of its progress (at least, from what I understand), the entire suit of mail was constructed of articulated, overlapping metal plates–including the joints.

I could be wrong, of course, and if I am, I welcome the correction; it’s only a note.

From what I understand (no, I haven’t gotten the chance to visit a library yet), if you can use a mace or a club, then you can use a war hammer. The minor information files found in the RPG known as Baldur’s Gate state that the warhammer was descended from the Lucerne/Lucrene hammer (not sure about the spelling), and that the whole point of the warhammer was to serve as a more effecient weapon for use by soldiers on horseback. (Hence, the point that Percival brought up–the fact that bludgeoning weapons rely on momentum to cause damage, and a charging horse contributed greatly to that.)

I’m guessing you can’t use them in the same manners that you’d attack with a carpenter’s hammer, though. :o Further, would someone need an obscene amount of strength in their employ to use such bludgeoning weapons in one hand and still hold a shield effectively in the other?

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Even if the body is heavily plated, there are always some areas lightly protected - the hand, the head (helmet can be knocked off), the neck. Besides, the cost and weight of such an outfit would set the mobility and treasury of any kingdom’s army back :stuck_out_tongue:

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Originally posted by Shalcar
While the wielder had little chance of dealing a killing blow with such a weapon they could cause the armor to deform under the force of the impact, causing quite extensive damage to the defender (bones breaking and the steel casing deforming and piercing flesh)

Deforming steel plates is virtually impossible to do with a warhammer, but the momentum could knock someone over and/or out. And yes, bones can still be broken.

Originally posted by Cless Alvein
Even if the body is heavily plated, there are always some areas lightly protected - the hand, the head (helmet can be knocked off), the neck.

Full plate armour is a suit of interlocking plates which do cover the joints because the plates slide thanks to rivets in the armour. It is possible to get between them with a melee weapon, but it is not an easy task. And it is not very easy to knock off an armet or sallet, which is extremely tight-fitting (the disadvantange being that sight and hearing are seriously impaired). If it was actually knocked off, the head would probably go with it. On most full plate armour, the neck is protected by a solid bevor or gorget, making it a difficult target as well. But if a swordsman is quick enough, then he can strike at the joints in an enemy’s armour and wound him (and hence most late mediaeval swords can be used for both piercing and slashing).

Originally posted by Star Eevee
Further, would someone need an obscene amount of strength in their employ to use such bludgeoning weapons in one hand and still hold a shield effectively in the other?

No, most warhammers ARE wielded with one hand. They may be heavy for their size, but they are not huge. Fantasy games and novels, unfortunately, often exagerate size.

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Originally posted by Sir Percival
Deforming steel plates is virtually impossible to do with a warhammer, but the momentum could knock someone over and/or out. And yes, bones can still be broken.

Indeed–logically (from my understanding) that’s the purpose of padding in armor to start with; to not only prevent chafing, but to help absorb the impact of blows–and help prevent the metal from moving with the backlash, so to speak…

Originally posted by Sir Percival
Full plate armour is a suit of interlocking plates which do cover the joints because the plates slide thanks to rivets in the armour. It is possible to get between them with a melee weapon, but it is not an easy task. And it is not very easy to knock off an armet or sallet, which is extremely tight-fitting (the disadvantange being that sight and hearing are seriously impaired). If it was actually knocked off, the head would probably go with it. On most full plate armour, the neck is protected by a solid bevor or gorget, making it a difficult target as well. But if a swordsman is quick enough, then he can strike at the joints in an enemy’s armour and wound him (and hence most late mediaeval swords can be used for both piercing and slashing).

So, even full-plate mail features joints that can be struck? Interesting…

(And of incidental note, I’ve never actually seen or operated a full-plate suit before, so my knowledge on it–if it can be considered that at all–is naturally limited.)

Originally posted by Cless Alvein
Even if the body is heavily plated, there are always some areas lightly protected - the hand, the head (helmet can be knocked off), the neck. Besides, the cost and weight of such an outfit would set the mobility and treasury of any kingdom’s army back :stuck_out_tongue:

That’s curious, considering that many medieval movies–“Excalibur” in particular–featured an entire country full of knights, each and every one decked-out in half-plate…

But then again, we are talking about half-plate in that case, and this whole discussion’s been about full-plate thus far. In that case, feel free to ignore it. ^^;

Oh, and speaking of armor–a matter of days ago, I ran across an interesting online article about medieval armor…I’ll show ye the link; if permissible, I’d like to know what you all think of it.

http://www.stormshock.com/history/docs/article.php?index=31

And to conclude, I want to ask this…

The most notable movie example (to me, at least) of (simulated) medieval combat are those scenes that took place in “Excalibur” (the 1980s movie version of the Arthurian Legend–Nigel Terry was one of the actors, if I remember right). It wasn’t just swords and axes–bludgeoning weapons such as morningstars (the cylindrical ones, as seen in Baldur’s Gate) and maces (the larger, heavier-looking unspiked versions) were also implemented in many of the scenes. Do you believe that the combat scenes utilized in this movie are accurately portrayed (in terms of combat realism)?