Viva Sephiroth Katana, El Presidente!
Unfortunately, it is very rarely politicians are in a position where telling the truth would do them any good. Most people like the happy and delusional perceptions they have of the world, and wouldn’t want to see them thorn apiece.
And of course, they would be the first ones to be blamed.
>How do you know that the violence won’t just escalate instead, like it did in Vietnam, or that we won’t be loathed and resented by the Iraqis like the Japanese were by Koreans prior to World War II?
This situation is a lot different from Vietnam, because in Vietnam we didn’t even destroy the enemy government; at least we have gotten that far in Iraq. It’s also a lot different than the Japanese occupation of Korea, because the Japanese were brutal and didn’t bother to disguise it, while we’re not brutal, nor do we intend to be.
>What if the choice is between leaving voluntarily now and leaving involuntarily later after having wasted who knows how many lives?
To my understanding, the reason why most of the Iraqis riot and hold anti-American demonstrations is because of their poor quality of life under unprepared American management. Once the quality of life improves, their attitude will improve. I saw an Arab scholar(an actual Arab, not one who was born and raised in the U.S.) interviewed on PBS(PBS, not Fox News, it was the Jim Lehrer report), and what he basically said was that the violence is being perpetrated by 15-20% of the population, the Sunni Muslims who dominated Iraq under Saddam Hussein, and that the other 80-85% of Iraqis see the Americans as liberators. Most Iraqis are upset because America can’t seem to get the security situation under control and the country back up and running, and sure they protest because of that, but I think it stands to say that once their lives start noticeably improving, anti-American sentiment will go drastically down.
>In order to discuss that issue, we need at the very least a clearly defined timetable for reconstructing the country, as well as a well-outlined exit strategy. We still don’t have that.
I don’t think it is possible to map the whole thing out and say ‘Okay, we’re going to do this at this point, this at that point, if everything goes according to plan the whole process is going to take this many years’. It is too complex a situation to create a specific timetable.
If we leave now, we’ll reinforce the typical American foreign policy stereotype that America is a country that freely invades other nations when its interests are at stake, raises hell, then leaves without cleaning up. If we leave now, there’s a good chance the Shiite clerics could create a Fundamentalist Ismalic government, which is the last thing anyone(excepting Iran) in that region of the world wants. We have to be realistic: the people of Iraq are only going to accept democracy if they’re shown that it will improve the quality of their lives and help further their interests in the international stage, not because they want abstract qualities such as liberty and freedom. If we stay and help the country get back on its feet, the people will be much more receptive to a democratic government, if we don’t, they may just set up a theocracy. Compare South Korea to North Korea to see what the difference would be between an Iraq we rebuild, and an Iraq we don’t. I don’t know at this point if the war was justified, but we have to accept the situation we’re in now, and take the best course of action.
“To my understanding, the reason why most of the Iraqis riot and hold anti-American demonstrations…”
We’re also frequently shooting civilians and other bystanders in accidents, cases of mistaken identity, and cases of itchy trigger fingers. It’s hard to figure out how many it adds up to, exactly, because the media aren’t exactly encouraged to report on these things (just like they’re not reporting on the wounded American troops), but it’s clearly happening often enough to cause concern. Taken in tandem with the unprepared American management, the use of old Ba’athist apparatchiks, the detention camps, and all that, the Iraqis might have cause to be angry at that. Recently someone came up with the idea of destroying the property of farmers (e.g. bulldozing groves of trees) as some kind of collective punishment. Regardless of whether or not that was justified, those are exactly the kinds of things that make people, even people who cheered when we deposed Hussein, angry at us now.
“Most Iraqis are upset because America can’t seem to get the security situation under control and the country back up and running…”
If anything, the security situation has been getting more out of hand. We’ve had more daily attacks on the troops, and just recently, the insurgents blew up the hotel where Paul Wolfowitz was staying, destroyed one of our supposedly invincible Abrams tanks, and killed 15 GIs with one shot, all apparently just to show that they could. There was also a recent spate of car bombings in Baghdad, which should be the one single place in Iraq that we should be able to keep stable. Those are all events of the past couple of weeks.
“It is too complex a situation to create a specific timetable.”
Even a non-specific timetable or a tentative timetable, and a tentative assessment of costs, is better than no timetable and no assessment and constant evasion of any questions in that direction, which is what we have now.
“Compare South Korea to North Korea to see what the difference would be between an Iraq we rebuild, and an Iraq we don’t.”
Our presence in both Korea and Japan was seen by both the Koreans and Japanese as having far more legitimacy than our presence in Iraq from the point of view of the Iraqis, which was an important reason why we could rebuild them in the first place.
Keep in mind that I’m not really disagreeing with the principle of your post. I agree that it would be better, abstractly speaking, if we could turn Iraq into a democracy and administer it fairly while we’re there, than it would be if we were to leave. But I don’t think the administration is well-equipped to do that, understands how to do that, or is even very interested in working to establish peace as opposed to making more war and advancing the radical agenda of the neoconservatives. The magnitude of our lack of preparedness in Iraq, itself a result of that very lack of interest, has sapped the momentum of that agenda at least for the time being, but it doesn’t mean that its proponents aren’t just as important as before and still actively pushing it. It is just that that might turn this situation into a choice between leaving now while a theocracy appears in Iraq, or leaving later while a theocracy appears in Iraq.
Well, the media isn’t entirely responsible for their bad reporting. Bush created an executive order banning news coverage of soldiers leaving and returning, as well as banning news coverage of soldier’s funerals. However, this only relieves them of some of the blame. A recent report shows that a total of 4 anti-war statements were aired by all the major news stations combined, and the only one to get more than a soundbite was Michael Moore’s speech.
America is in one of it’s worst recessions ever, we have the longest, steepest drop in employment since the great depression. Almost every state in the country is flat broke (technically only 39 are, but thats close enouh for me.) And were spending hundreds of billions of dollars. And all of said money is going to defense contractors. If we hired Iraqi companies to rebuild their country, the total cost would have been under $15billion.
I wish I could be angry at all the attacks on American soldiers, but I can’t. Because, if we were invaded, I would strike back at every opportunity. I can’t blame them for fighting back against a country that invaded without cause, and specifically targeted civilians in the invasion (that’s why we called it Shock-and-Awe, because it involves cluster-bombing residential neighborhoods and killing large quantities of children)
Unfortunately, we can’t leave now. They were in no way a terrorist threat (or any kind of threat), but they are now. If we leave, the Moslem fundamentalists will sieze control, and it WILL become a terrorist threat. Isn’t it interesting how our war on terror has caused Al-Queda to quadruple its size, and created a terrorist state out of a harmless one?
I have seen strong evidence to show that Bush is not an asshole, in fact he seems to be a pretty nice guy. Unfortunately, he is either A) a puppet for someone else, B) A bungling idiot, C) pure evil, or D) all of the above.
Well thank God that the H2 came out and we can all use that lovely piece of machinery. You see by using more oil, we can get rid of all the oil in the Mideast quicker, therefore they won’t have access to oil when they need it. Then it will be impossible for the terrorists to get money from their governments. That way they won’t be able to afford weapons and the like. This is obviously the best reason to waste gas. Therefore SUVs are patriotic. Destroy terrorist and the environment simultaneously.
I’m really sick of Iraq. Gas prices haven’t dropped to a reasonable rate. That was the entire reason we got into the war. The soldiers’ morale is probably down significantly compared to the begining of the war. We’ve lost more people in the post conflict. Now for all of you who say that there were terrorist cells operating in Iraq, I don’t fucking care. There are terrorist cells in Saudi Arabia. Hell, the Saudi government probably set up the whole 9-11 deal. But since they give us so much god damn oil we can just look past all the shit they are involved in. I mean we would all have been better off if house of reps and the senate focused on the fucking economy instead of creating another Tonkin Gulf resolution and HUAC a.k.a: the Department of Homeland Security.
That was my rant.
The H2 pisses me off royally, if you are going to het a Hummer, get a FUCKING HUMMER. Also the fact that 99% of vehicals designed for off road use never see dirt pisses me off, and degrades the vehicle to an urban assualt vehical.
Originally posted by Frameskip
The H2 pisses me off royally, if you are going to het a Hummer, get a FUCKING HUMMER. Also the fact that 99% of vehicals designed for off road use never see dirt pisses me off, and degrades the vehicle to an urban assualt vehical.
Damned gas-guzzling roadhogs.
People, like I’ve mentioned SO many times…
We need to move towards TRE communism, what will do this is a mass suicide… I beg of you, commit a mass suicide in the name of Neo-Communism…in the name of <b>ME</b>!!!
Eventually…I will <b>rule</b> the world…and all that defy me will die…then I will continue my plans for Neo-Communism.
Originally posted by Uriel
We need to move towards TRE communism, what will do this is a mass suicide… I beg of you, commit a mass suicide in the name of Neo-Communism…in the name of <b>ME</b>!!!
You go first, we’ll all be right behind you.
neo-communism??
hehe you’ll have to wipe out the old one first
Well, there’s no doubt that the violent opposition in Iraq has only gotten worse, and is getting worse. But, for now, I will just say that I believe staying is the best option, and that we can get the security situation under control, and that the violence will taper once the lives of the people start improving.
Wonder what would happen if we pulled out. It would be interesting to see what kind of chaos insues.