AD&D is TOTAL crap!

Or so this guy would have you believe.

Actually, it’s pretty well-thought-out, and since I don’t know anything about D&D, I can’t really say counterarguments. The only problem is, uh, that after the manifesto you have to press “end” and then read each of those paragraphs in reverse order. At least, as far as I can tell.

Get a new avatar, Clown Boy.

This covers 1st and 2nd edition primarily… from what I gather, 3rd edition fixes a lot of problems. I’ve only ever played 3rd edition, so I cant counterargue those points either, but I can say that if someone does something supercheesy but ‘within the rules’, the DM has all the power to give him all the crap he wants, or even not allow it at all.

My Shadowrun DM says it well; “However much string you pull… is equivalent to how much rope you are hanging yourself with”, and has thus far been quite good at enforcing that idealogy.

Theres two kinds of people out there (who like D&D) those who like 2nd Edition, and those who realize it sucks and have welcomed 3.5 edition into thier lives. Its solid as hell, even though a bit rules heavy, and certainly noteworthy as one of the best systems out.

It’s a fucking GAME! If you don’t like it, you aren’t even forced to play it, dammit! Leave the poor players alone.

BTW, I like GURPS over D&D for about those same reasons.

Although I enjoy 1st and 2nd ed, this guy is pretty much right about how ridiculous the rules are. If he tried to do this with 3rd ed or 3.5, though, he’d be at a loss for words.

I did play 2nd Ed. I have to say his arguments are somewhat valid, the system was very flawed. I do find his choices of flaws to be odd though, as some of them are explained in the system, and he missed some of the most blatant shortcomings.
I personally enjoyed the oddness of something in skills and powers. (A game expansion more designed to break a system I have never seen.) Admittedly they later erratad this example out of exisence. I took a cleric, gave up turn undead and all magic spheres other than healing, and bought all the schools of wizard magic. I had a “Wizard” who wore armor, used decent weapons + Thac0, had more HP, advanced on the priest table, and had healing spells. It was never used in a game, it was created merely to show the problem inherent in Skills+Powers.

Fortunately, none of his arguments apply to D&D 3.5.

So, the experienced players can vouch that 2nd ed was really this bad? I’ve heard it was bad, but the only major flaw I know of was the whole THaC0 deal, whereas this sounds like a real doozy. Even the ‘DM stops these things’ excuse wouldn’t apply if the problems were this widespread, the DMs head would explode.

While we’re on the subject of stats-munchkining (‘munchkin’ refers to people that are overobsessed with stats, sometimes), I’m beginning to believe that if a game is to be a true RPG, as in one where you literally play someones role, it would have to be one that eschews the whole ‘levelling up’ system altogether, and go just for raw statistics. While the D&D games I’ve been in have been good, I’d say they’ve become the P+P equivalent of a strategy RPG. We do spend time doing RP and all, but also have to dive into the stats equally so. The shadowrun campaign, on the other hand, has been going over a year strong, and yet we’ve only gone on about… 4 ‘runs’ (AKA missions), and only one of them took more than one session (2, to be specific). And yet so much has happened I have TWO characters in it, realistically integrated in there, too. And if you are wondering, there have been sessions were we didn’t even have to touch the character sheets.

DISCLAIMER: I am not saying one style is better than an other, nor am I saying one system is better than another, I’m just saying that I’ve observed, and thought I would mention as food-for-thought.

Munchkins, Twinks, Assholes, Retards and Min-Maxers exists in in all RPG systems, I’m afraid. Blame the players, not the system.

Myself I went from 2nd to 3.5 D&D, but I’m playing more of Exalted(Yes, White Wolf, bitch. Problem with that? WoD still suck. :D), Mutant and Masterminds and Feng Shui lately. Oh, and Battletech.

It would of been better if the Manifesto strated like: A saving throw is haunting the world. The saving throw of D&D.

All tabletop RPGs have areas where they have issues. AD&D was really no more flawed than the others of its time. (For those who doubt, pick up Murphy’s Rules, its hilarious)

D&D 3ed was very good, made up largely of house rules, but so new it still had a lot of flaws, 3.5 really is a good system.

White Wolf annoyed me too much with Vampire, 3 Editions in 5 years, screw you! $200 of books completely useless in 2 years? I dropped them and never looked back.

Like I said, World of Darkness sucks.


WoD doesn’t suck… but WW fucking sucks. They’re a bunch of bastards for doing what they did… download their books for free on a fileshare network! :smiley:

Hey hey, do you really want to be compared to Fiero?