Wierd thing about hate groups...

Has anyone noticed how every hate group in existance has a thing against the Jews? Really, they hate any other race, but the Jews REALLY have to die. I don’t understand what the fucking world has against one of the oldest religions to have ever existed, but it’s apprantly a big deal, since every hate group has something against them.

Also, you don’t hear a lot about Jewish hate groups; well, maybe because of the Israel-Palestine situation, but that’s more political than anything else. I mean, every race has a known hate group…save for the Jewish community. Is there some secret underground Jewish hate community I don’t know about?

Note: Just to be clear, I have nothing against Jews, and believe that racism and bigotry have no place in society AT ALL. Of course, you have to be a total retard to not notice that.

So everyone hates me?

:too bad; :too bad;

Originally posted by d Galloway
is there some Jewish hate community I don’t know about?
Well, Kach and Kahane Chai are considered terrorist groups. I don’t know if that answers your question.

Originally posted by d Galloway
I don’t understand what the fucking world has against one of the oldest religions to have ever existed,
What? I thought you were just talking about “hate groups” a moment ago. Why are you suddenly expanding their motivations to include “the fucking world”?

Unfortunately, “Jew” and “Jewish” has become an obscene and derogatory term around my area. I’ve never critisized anyone of being jewish or being a “Jew”, I believe it’s much too vulgar to be used in that sense. Stupid kids.

Well… there certainly is hatred by Jewish people (who are, after all, people), but there are no official “movements” to that effect. Even the vaunted settlers that people keep talking about are generally defensive, not offensive - they do not attack West Bank villages with mortars in revenge for the almost constant attacks on their own homes. Of course there are exceptions, but restraint is constantly preached. I will mention one sect, called the Neturei Karta - an extremist and very small group that believes that Jews have no right to be in the Holy Land until the Messiah arrives. They do have some shady dealings, but the only people they target, ironically, are Jews.

Part of our lack of violence has to do with our religion - unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism has no concept of “holy war”. There is absolutely no commandment worth killing over, and only three major commandments worth dying over. Self-defense is the one and only reason any Jew has a right to kill anyone else. The basis for that is so strong that no one has managed to corrupt it and claim that there are exceptions, like what happened in the Crusades or the current suicide bombers.

Another part of it is that up until recently, Jews have stayed remarkably faithful to the original text of the Bible. Whereas both Christianity and Islam added to the Old Testament, we believe that no one has the right to do something like that, so it’s impossible for someone to come and say “well, the Torah’s wrong when it says you can’t kill people.”

As for hatred for Jews… There have been books upon books written about anti-Semitism. There are three major ideas behind it that seem to be popular. The first is Jews as scapegoats - because Jews generally didn’t fight back (we were scholars, not warriors) we were seen as easy targets. Perfect for people to blame things on.

The second major idea is simple jealousy. Looking at the statistics, Jews far outweigh other races as far as success goes - I believe about 30% of Nobel Prizes were won by Jews - who make up about 0.1% of the world population. Jews have always been “over-represented” in universities and in big businesses. That sparks the whole “Jews rule the world” crap that these morons spew.

The third is a bit deeper but makes a good deal more psychological sense. It’s this: The basic tenet of the Jewish religion is right over might. The idea that you can’t do everything you want, because there’s a God that will punish you if you do - though not in this world. In other words, morality and the idea that you can’t beat up on people for the heck of it. People like Hitler hated that. It went against his whole idea of “might makes right”, so he vowed to destroy it. I’m not making this up - we had a speaker at our synagogue who had done a study of Mein Kampf and had come to this conclusion.

I will say one last thing, too. There’s a backlash against anti-anti-Semitism - basically people who claim that Jews are overusing the Holocaust as a giant guilt trip and that there are many nations who suffered. That’s true - but anti-Semitism is built into the very nature of humans, since the dawn of time. It’s hard for people to imagine regular people like them, who have houses and families, going out and murdering hundreds of innocent people. But that’s EXACTLY what happened in Germany in the 1940’s. We’re not any more civilized now than we were then. The “civilized” Canada is famous for claiming that “one Jew is too many.” If it happened then, it can just as easily happen now. That’s why we are perhaps overzealous in protecting ourselves - because everyone else forgets.

The constant demonization of Israel is already leading to a rise in anti-Semitism and an association of Israelis with evil. All people need is an excuse. That’s why we want to make sure we don’t give it to them.

Sorry for waffling on so long. ^^;

Originally posted by Cidolfas
anti-Semitism is built into the very nature of humans, since the dawn of time.
This is ridiculous. You’re basically claiming that “humans” are inherently anti-Semitic, and even if they don’t have any anti-Semitic views they’re just waiting for an “excuse” to start hating Jews again, even if they don’t know it, because it’s “built into their nature.”

Before you get angry at me, is that not what comes out of your words? “All people need is an excuse”? Who are you referring to when you say “people”? What “people”? The members of those marginalized hate groups brought up in the original post? The people on this board? The entire population of Europe? All three? Any time anyone starts ascribing something like that to “people” or “humans” or even smaller denominations thereof, one is heading down a bad road.

Originally posted by Cidolfas
We’re not any more civilized now than we were then.
This is absolutely wrong. The Holocaust has become the world’s symbol of a crime against humanity (a concept that hadn’t even existed prior to then; people had been tried for war crimes but never for crimes against humanity). When people in the West think of “genocide,” they think of the Holocaust, and rightly so. That fact by itself is a total victory over anti-Semitism. In some countries (like “‘civilized’ Canada,” by the way), it’s considered a criminal offence to deny that the Holocaust happened. Back in the era you mentioned, it was considered a matter of course to deny Jews religious or civil rights, limit their access to universities, get special licences for marriage, and so forth. Now those practices are not only gone, they’re considered unthinkable. Anti-Semitism is actually against the law in some countries in Europe - for instance, Germany has outlawed several radical Muslim groups for writing anti-Semitic pamphlets.

Here, just look at the way d Galloway ended his post - “I…believe that racism and bigotry have no place in society AT ALL. Of course, you have to be a total retard to not notice that.” I think everyone on this board agrees with that and considers it just as self-evident. That’s because everyone on this board has been brought up in a completely new society from the America of the 1860s or the Germany of the 1930s. To claim that there’s no difference between then and now would be insulting if it weren’t so obviously nonsensical.

Originally posted by Cidolfas
The “civilized” Canada is famous for claiming that “one Jew is too many.”
Yeah, that was before Canada enacted laws against that very attitude, and then used them against various Holocaust deniers and hate groups. Canada even banned websites that promoted denial of the Holocaust, which the United States would never do.

Originally posted by Cidolfas
If it happened then, it can just as easily happen now.
One could say that about the Inquisition and the enslavement of black people, too. But the whole point is that those things could not “easily happen now,” because of progress made because of various historical turning points. The fact is that black people are not regarded in America the same way they were during the time of slavery or even during the time of segregation. That doesn’t mean that hatred of black people doesn’t exist, but it is true that that hatred has gradually been deprived of its role in defining and forming American culture. The KKK used to be a genuinely, frighteningly strong force, with a lot of money and influence. Now it’s at the margins of society, where it belongs, <i>even though</i> it’s still given a right to express its views. That means one thing - that by and large, people have rejected those views. What does it mean to say that the KKK “could” make a comeback? Well, of course it “could,” in the same way that the sun “could” explode tomorrow, but it first would have to change the country by as much as the country changed since the days of slavery, and it’s going to cease to exist long before it ever even starts doing that.

Originally posted by Cidolfas
Another part of it is that up until recently, Jews have stayed remarkably faithful to the original text of the Bible. Whereas both Christianity and Islam added to the Old Testament, we believe that no one has the right to do something like that, so it’s impossible for someone to come and say “well, the Torah’s wrong when it says you can’t kill people.”

An interesting argument. Maybe you could point out where in the New Testament it says one is allowed to kill people. While there are those that draw the source of their anti-Semitism from the crucifiction, doing so runs contrary to everything Jesus taught.

This is ridiculous. You’re basically claiming that “humans” are inherently anti-Semitic, and even if they don’t have any anti-Semitic views they’re just waiting for an “excuse” to start hating Jews again, even if they don’t know it, because it’s “built into their nature.”

I fail to see how this is ridiculous. I gave three reasons as to why anti-Semitism isn’t going to go away any time soon. Whether or not people act on those feelings is a different story, but the feelings won’t change.

When I was referring to “people”, I didn’t have a specific target in mind. Anti-Semites change. Our main enemies up until this century were the Christians. In B.C. times it was the Romans. Now it’s the Muslims.

I’m not saying that Germany is going to do another Holocaust, or Canada. But I wouldn’t be surprised to see a Muslim nation try it. And in another hundred years it’ll be someone else. I really don’t think that 4000 years of hatred can be wiped out in 50 years of “enlightenment”. Democracy and human rights is a fine thing, but it’s not universally accepted and I don’t think it’s a given that it will be.

While there are those that draw the source of their anti-Semitism from the crucifiction, doing so runs contrary to everything Jesus taught.

I agree. My point is that the New Testament in and of itself is an addition to the Old Testament and effectively says that many things in the Old Testament aren’t true any more. Once that line has been crossed, it isn’t such a stretch to have someone else come and twist the words in the New Testament to come up with something else.

I think what cid was trying to say was that there will always be a group of people on this planet somewhere that is anti-semitic, not that every person on the face of the planet who isn’t a jew is anti-semitic.

which is still pretty ridiculous…but not as ridiculous.

Originally posted by zeppelin
I think what cid was trying to say was that there will always be a group of people on this planet somewhere that is anti-semitic, not that every person on the face of the planet who isn’t a jew is anti-semitic.
If that’s all he meant, I have no objection. But it sounds to me like he’s trying to say both of those things at once. I said, to him, “This is ridiculous. You’re basically claiming that “humans” are inherently anti-Semitic, and <i>even if they don’t have any anti-Semitic views they’re just waiting for an “excuse” to start hating Jews again, even if they don’t know it, because it’s “built into their nature.”</i>” (Emphasis added.)

To that, he quoted my interpretation and said there was nothing ridiculous about it. Yet he didn’t say that I misinterpreted what he was “basically claiming.” I think that that means he accepts my interpretation and considers it to be true. Furthermore, in his earlier post he gave an example of anti-Semitism in Canada and followed it up by saying “if it could happen then, it could happen now.” It sure sounds to me like he’s talking about the Western world there.

I reject the thesis that no progress has been made by the world since Nazi Germany and that “people” and “humans” are “inherently anti-Semitic” but just sometimes don’t act on it. Basically, it logically follows from that thesis that even people who have no racist views (like d Galloway, who condemned bigotry in his original post) are “inherently anti-Semitic” but just don’t “act on their feelings.” I don’t like that kind of generalization because even though it’s overwhelmingly negative (in our society, being called an anti-Semite or a racist is considered a <i>very</i> bad thing, thus showing once again that societal attitudes towards these issues have changed), it’s impossible to prove because it’s based on blanket assertions about something being “built into human nature,” and furthermore, it’s impossible to disprove for the same reason.

All I’m saying is that there will be always be people who will hate Jews because they see them as more successful, different, or just easy targets. It’s actually quite simple to reintroduce anti-Semitism: equate Jews with murderers. After all, it’s very easy to hate (e.g.) Nazi war criminals. Nothing immoral about that. And in fact, anti-Israel rhetoric has been rife with wild (and ironic) comparisons of Israelis with Nazis. Delegitimize Israel as a state of criminals, and you’re only one small step away from delegitimizing Jews as a race of criminals, a step that plenty of people have already taken.

After all, being an anti-Semite is bad, but being anti-Israel is currently all the rage. And while many people have enough common sense to know where to draw the line, there’s plenty who deliberately cross it.