Thats what SG was commenting on, how the hell do you figure ToD, ToD2, or SO2 are harder than 7th fucking Saga?
I haven’t played 7th Saga for more than five minutes. What the hell does how hard the creators make the game have to do with anything? 
plot, because playing RPGs can be rather repetitive/boring when it comes to fighting or item chasing. Maybe that’s why Cless’ battle system point is a better one than I though.
There isn’t any specific element that is the most important. It is how it all comes together that really matters. The game as a whole.
What it has to do with ANYTHING, Cless, is that you mentioned CHALLENGE. And the point I was making is, that even menu-based games can be challenging. More challenging than a game like ToD, where, if you’re really agressive (which is pretty much the only tactic in the game :P), you can beat the last boss without getting hit at all.
No, YOU mentioned challenge first. Both types of games can be challenging or not challenging, depending on the whim of the creators. Fine, 7th Saga is harder than Star Ocean, but that doesn’t make it more fun
Replay value is a big factor for me as of late. Then again, that’s what Nethack’s for. Don’t get me started on both the evilness and greatness that is Nethack.
You’re right. My bad.
Still, my point stands, I think that’s what makes games like that boring. They’re just easy. Of course, you DID say, after I mentioned that, that you found them more challenging than Menu-Based games. Which is why I was brought to this point in the first place. 
I really can’t think of any menu-based game that’s all that much easier than an action RPG. They’re really just easy, and unfortunately, that CAN make a game much less fun. ToD was fun, because it was just hell-arious to me. ToD2, was not very fun, cos while it was innovative, it really just wasn’t any hard, and much less hectic and funny. ToD2’s saving grace was the mystery chef that just barged out of people’s closet and stuff. Now THAT as fucking awesome
My name is SG and I’m an expert on Hades. In fact, I’m a bigger expert on him than he is on himself, and that puts me in a position to decide FOR HIM whether or not he’s dealing with the agony of seeing the same uninsightful, flamewar-inducing threads that seem to appear every few weeks because clearly if the person who posted them wasn’t around the first few dozen times they were discussed, we can assume with 100% accuracy that they’ve never been posted about before. It’s only logical.
SD: I like how you’ve made presumptions about me based on the tiny fraction of my time here that you were also here. Clearly, since you’ve been observing me for a whole few weeks between idling for months in a row and never having a serious conversation with me ever, you’re a better authority on what I have to deal with than I am. You and SG should like, form a club or something, and call it the I-know-more-about-you-than-you-do club. Then you can like, make up peoples’ minds FOR THEM, but with STYLE!
As for what I’m actually dealing with, it has something to do with the lack of mind-food and over-frequency of unoriginal content on these forums, which happen to take up a big part of my time. Wait, shit! I almost forgot, I’m not dealing with anything. Sorry.
Well yeah, challenge is a big factor, which is why my friend and I went through most of ToD2 on Hardcore mode. (We beat that light craymel on Hardcore! Do you know how fucking hard that is :P) I guess it’s more fun when you have two people playing, because every battle was more fun than all the minigames of FF combined Because it was so hectic and we had to pay attention to <i>everything</i> or else die because you walked out of a healing circle when you’re at low HP, that it made the game really challenging <i>and</i> fun. But I agree about the ease only if you play on Normal mode though. On Hardcore mode some of the enemies are damn near-impossible
Edit: Hades, they’re new for other people. The! End! Don’t post if all you’re gonna do is argue with people about how they don’t understand you (even if they don’t)
Hades, maybe they wouldn’t become flamewars if you didn’t start flaming everyone who posts on them.
Man cless, do you have to flawlessly refute posts I spend half an hour on with only 10 words? It ruins all the fun 
Hades, you’re just as human as I am. No one forces you to do anything. It doesn’t matter how agonizing it is. If you think it’s trouble, then don’t get involved Simple. Besides, these threads don’t exactly come around often. Why do you think there’s a perfectly normal conversation going on? There are rules about them because the thread idea is so common, that it’s likely they’ll come up a lot unless you speak up. But occasionally, it’s fun to have a conversation about this. I’ve not seen a thread like this in a while, not on the main forum anyways. Besides, the guy is new; you have to look at it from a different perspective. He might have never discussed this with anyone, so it’s completely new to him. I know that when I’ve got the chance to discuss something I like, I get VERY excited. I’m sure it’s probly the same thing here. Again, lemme repeat: No one really forces you to read these threads, or post. You’re here of your own volition, so don’t whine about stuff like this.
or, to put it more concisely, read Cless’s take on it.
EDIT: Erk, Hades 
I started this post before you made your most recent one, sorry
So anyways, Cless. I played ToD1 and 2 with my friend, also. I wouldn’t have played them by myself, they’re just too damn boring. Maybe they are harder on Hard Mode. I didn’t realize there was one though. My friend and I are planning a 3-4 player run on ToD2 sometime this summer, so maybe we’ll try that.
Alright No more flaming Here’s a serious response from me:
I think a few people have already mentioned “good gameplay” as a requirement, but I don’t think many people have actually described what kind of gameplay is good. Basically, it has to be involving. Pure menu-battling is the most painfully boring type of RPG I’ve ever played. Your fingers aren’t doing enough and that makes it feel more like you’re watching a movie than playing a game. Games that are great in this area are FFVI-X, Super Mario RPG, and any Action RPGs like SoE and SoM.
Speed is also an important part of RPGs. Suikoden had speed. FFVIII and FFX had speed. In FFIX and Chrono Cross it was possible to take short naps while waiting for the ATB to fill up or for your characters to finish executing their moves, and this creates large amounts of anxiety in the player. I doubt it’s the case for everyone, but anxiety is what prevented me from enjoying FFIX as much as I could’ve and from even completing CC at all. The slow pace and (often) unclear objectives in DW7 also took away from some of it’s better assets, like the amazing atmosphere and sense of vastness it impresses in your mind.
About challenge, IMO, it can make (Shinobi) or break (Chrono Cross) any game, not limited to RPGs. Tough enemies combined with slowness and clumsy gameplay is probably the best way to discourage anyone from spending a lot of time on a game in one sitting. A good example of this is the boss fights in Chrono Cross. If it didn’t take half an hour per retry, the challenge in CC wouldn’t be nearly as frustrating as it is. In Shinobi, this type of challenge actually adds to the experience because you can be in and out of a battle in 20 to 30 seconds. It’s HARD, but you can retry frequently and feel yourself improving every time. In CC, not only will you die often and brutally, but you have no scale with which to guage your progress. This is what discouraged me from finishing CC.
I agree about unclear objectives making a game really suck, I have, at some point in a game I really like, had to wonder around until I accidently figured out what to do next. I think that game developers forget that all gamers aren’t mind readers. Mind you this is not at all a common occurence, but when it does happen, my opinion of the game in question goes down considerably. Although I’ve never played DW7.
Usualy if the main character looks cool or not. I mean, if im going to play a game for around 30 hours, i want the main character to look pretty awesome since i’ll be staring at him for a while. Thats pretty much why i bought legend of dragoon, since darts armor looked kinda neat.
I like it when the charaters look powerfull when there attacking too. Thats why i liked Valkrie Profile so much, since you did thousands of points of damage about midway through the game, and why I don’t like the DW series that much since you do about 30 or so damage midway through the game.
These are all pretty pointless reasons, but the most pointless reason for me buying an RPG was for Grandia Xtreme, which i bought mainly because Mark Hamil did some voice acting in it.
The most important thing I look for in an RPG is how feminine the lead male looks, hence LoM being my favorite RPG ever.
Other than that, I suppose I look for a combat and leveling system that makes sense to me. There are very few RPGs that I have played and haven’t liked. Plot is a nice thing to have, but some of my favorite games have virtually none: Final Fantasy is just save the world and Legend of Mana doesn’t have a continuous plot, although there are a number of minor ones.
Also, the command list battle vs. action RPGs isn’t an issue for me. I played loads more of the former and only recently started playing some of the latter variety, and both are enjoyable.
Graphics and sound aren’t issues at all for me. I’ve got a friend who can’t stand old 8-bit games, there are plenty of times I’d rather play them than more aesthetically pleasing games.
The only distinct reason I can give for not liking a game is that it is so easy as to be monotonous (e.g. FFMQ).
Bah. “RPG” is just an acronym, a collection of letters. What matters is the connection the word implies. [looks around hopefully to see if anyone got the ref]
Well lets think.
I like to make decisions, and not just stupid decisions, game effecting decisions. Like in KoTOR you could join the darkside and such. Also, actually having some roleplay to do is fun, rather than just fighting all the time and going through dungeon after dungeon after dungeon. Good party system is also nice.
Graphics are unimportant to me. I’ll play it no matter how it looks as long as there’s some decency.
Story (what are you fighting for), characters (interaction, development), battle system, and challenge are the key elements for me. If an RPG excels in just one of these areas, that’s good enough for me to love it. Music, graphics and sub quests enhance a game, but cannot by themselves carry a title (i.e. Chrono Cross, FF7+, etc.).
FFVI and Xenogears are my two favorites, because I loved the stories and characters, although they lacked challenge. Obviously, both titles were enhanced by the music. Suikoden 2 had horrid graphics, no challenge, and a poor battle system…but the story and characters were amazing and it’s easily one of my favorites.
Baldurs Gate I didn’t have the best story, and the characters were very poor, but I loved the game due to the battle system and ridiculous difficulty. Grandia Xtreme is an example of a game that I enjoyed only for the battle system; it was severely lacking everywhere else (had a lot of potential…it’s a shame they didn’t expand the game and turn it into Grandia 3). I loved the Lunar titles for the character interaction, while the main stories were somewhat generic.