Ultimecia theory - your opinions?

RPGC Community The FFCompendium Forum
21

But she wasn’t junctioned to him at all. Only in the last battle did she junction herself to the GF. Like how can Square expect the fans to make such a vague connection between characters? And I doubt someone who had the ability and means to compress time would become mentally weakened due to a GF…

I agree about the whole “omg where did she come from?!” newsflash, it’s been done before. I don’t get why people would whine over such a thing because they did it with FF7 on a minor scale (Shinra, and then Sephiroth), Chrono Trigger on a minor scale (Magus and then Lavos), Valkyrie Profile (the Jotuns but depending on what you did you squared off with Loki), and dare I say even Star Ocean 2nd story, a game where you had no clue just who you were going up against.

It’s all been done, maybe not on a grand scale such as FF8, but I find it keeps the game fresh. What fun is playing when you know immediatly who you will be fighting at the very end of the game.

Judging from assumptions and references I’ve picked up during my short FFX gameplat, obviously that would be an exception.

22

I don’t understand your connections with the other games Eva. In Chrono Trigger the you see Lavos destroy 1999 A.D. before you fight Magus. You fight Magus because you think he is summoning Lavos to destroy the world.

In Final Fantasy 7, Sephiroth’s back story is incorporated through Clouds history as a member of Soldier. His involvement is also introduced fairly early in, as opposed to Ultimecia, who does not get mentioned until Disc 3 or so.

23

Yeah i think I kinda messed up with CT. But I meant it on a minor note like…the first big bad you encounter in that game is Magus and he’s a threatening force behind the scenes…and then we learn about Lavos, although he isn’t that big of a presence until you finally do meet up with Magus (correct me if I’m wrong, it’s been awhile)

In FF7, you start out hating on Shinra and through them you learn about Sephiroth…but you pretty much play cat and mouse with him and end up confronting Shinra most of the time.

Like I said, they’re quite minor compared to FF8’s Where Did She Come From but they’re still examples of how that misdirection can work.

I think BoF was the best example though, because it’s on the same scale. The only hint of Tyr you get is through the 8 keys that are briefly noted as being connected to the goddess of such and such.

24

But she wasn’t junctioned to him at all. Only in the last battle did she junction herself to the GF. Like how can Square expect the fans to make such a vague connection between characters? And I doubt someone who had the ability and means to compress time would become mentally weakened due to a GF…

You got to remember she first summoned him i believe you got to be junctioned to a GF to summon him after that,from my point of view she practically fusioned herself to Greiver to add her power to him.And i don’t belive it was actually mentally weakened but a side effect of having GF’s that was never proven (But we know it does from playing the game).

25

By the way… my real name ain’t Anne. It’s actually Miki. ^U^

26

Well yeah but didnt she actually merge with him too? And come on, to make such a connection out of this flat theory that hasn’t even been confirmed is stretching it. Ultimecia losing her memory over a GF and not recognizing Squall? I don’t think so. It just doesn’t fit.

27

A couple of problems with the memory loss idea. She saw Squall before junctioning Griever, yet she still didn’t know him. And also it takes a while for the GFs to cause memory loss, Ultimecia was only junctioned for a short period of time. Definetly not long enough to forget about her true love, if she was really Rinoa.

Which she wasn’t by the way.

28

Griever wasnt really summoned. HE was created. Ultimecia didnt need to junction a GF for her powers and abilities. One of the perks about being a sorceress is that you get to use all these cool powers naturally. Fighting Griever WAS more of a psycological battle, ment to break them down mentally.
“but how did Ultimecia know about Griever ?” Well, it wasnt because she looked into his mind(i doubt she had that power), but she could look into the past, and Squall described Griever to Rinoa, and held it close ever since he was a child. Ultimecia DID have the power to look into the past and manipulte small details.

There is also the theory, that if you went back in time, and met your past-self, it would cause you to cease to exist. So, if Ultimecia was really Rinoa, and kills Rinoa along with the rest of Squall’s party… Ultimecia would cease to exist.

NOTETOCT: I killed Magus when we were tryingt o make a Crono clone… But, i never got around to beating Lavos, soo, i cant really talk… :runaway:

29

Eva, I’d like to quote your argument:

“I also don’t believe SeeD ever faced any sorceress. Remember in the game? They said the original mission for SeeD was long forgotten, and SeeD has only existed for a little over a decade. Edea was the sorceress for that long, yet they NEVER FOUGHT HER ONCE. So the theory of SeeD facing Ultimecia “over the generations” is very false since a)SeeD had not existed for one generation b)Nobody knew of Ultimecia’s existance and c)It was stated in the game that SeeD’s original purpose was lost and forgotten (thus the garden acts as mercenaries for hire instead.)”

Point 1) True. SeeD never faces any sorceress. BUT… it’s stated in the game that ‘SeeDs are trained to defeat the sorceress.’ SeeD couldn’t have existed for approximately a decade, because when Squall and co. have joined Garden, Garden had existed for a lil’ while AT LEAST, because when Squall had joined Garden, he was around six years old. Garden must have been well established by then. Seventeen minus six equals… ELEVEN! Over a decade at least, as SeeD must have been established at least a little while ago, because it was ‘well known’ and ‘a haven for orphans’, la de da de dah.

Point 2) It’s also stated in-game that ‘SeeD was created to defeat the sorceress’. Adel was a neutralised threat by the time SeeD was created. I mean, since Esthar’s resistance group was trying to knock off Adel, wouldn’t they hire SeeD? I mean, they were waiting on their butts before Laguna came along, so if they had existed, they’d hire SeeD. They wouldn’t just be stationary.
Anyway, Adel was a neutralised threat when SeeD was created. By the way, Adel will never give her powers away as long as she stays sealed, because she ain’t dead, technically. So Edea is the only current sorceress. Together, Cid and Edea created SeeD. Their purpose was to defeat the sorceress. Oh, suuuure, Cid’s trying to knock of his wife, and she knows it. Suuuuuuuure. “JERRY! JERRY!” I don’t think so. So there must be some other sorceress out there. I believe Edea knows about Ultimecia, because that is where she recieved some part of her power from. Edea recognises Ultimecia as being evil because she sees Squall trying to KILL her. She knows Squall as a little child, and so is inclined to trust lil’ ole’ Squally-boy. So she and Cid are training kids to knock the sorceress off for them. They wouldn’t do it themselves, because they’re the only peeps to know about it.

Point 3) The above leads me to another argument. I don’t believe Cid and Edea would tell anyone else about that sorceress that gave her powers to Edea, because if the world learned there was some evil sorceress was out there somewhere, and Edea inhererited HER powers, that would lead the world to the conclusion that Edea was also fucked-up-mega-insane, not to mention evil. So they’d go and KILL her, or possibly seal her, as they did to Adel. And I bet that Edea doen’t want that.
So by themselves, they would soooo not be able to kill Ultimecia. I mean, look at themand tell me that they’re able to defeat the most powerful sorceress of all bloody time. I DON’T THINK SO, BILLY.
So they start SeeD, and withhold the real reason of which they started SeeD. Remember? It’s said that no-one really knows the secret behind SeeD. The fact that Edea is a sorceress, who inherited her powers from some evil entity from the future, the fact that they’re training SeeDs for future generations, so that they may one day finish off lil’ Ultimecia.

Point 4) Bringing us to the paradox. It’s impossible to truly finish off Ultimecia. See all other evidence.

Also… in which part was it said that ‘SeeD’s original mission was long forgotten?’

There’s something else, also quoted by Eva and rpgamer.com:

“Fact 5 Counterpoint: This is a bizarre use of logic. Ultimecia’s inability to recognize Squall in no way supports the Rinoa=Ultimecia argument-in fact, it is evidence against that argument. If Ultimecia remembered something like which field Squall promised to meet her in, one would think she’d have at least some small inkling of what her lost lover looks like. It is not that she “does not recognize [that] squall is squall,” it’s that she’s never seen or known the kid before.”

As we know, GFs cause memory loss. Ultimecia must have had Griever junctioned to her, as it’s impossible to summon a GF without it being junctioned. Being ‘In Squall’s mind, the most powerful GF’, this would have been way more powerful than all ‘normal’ GFs.

On the subject of GFs - look at Ultimecia’s GF’s name: Griever. Someone who grieves, a ‘griever’, or to grieve is ‘to feel very sad about something’, quoted from the Collins Cobuild Learner’s Dictionary. Anyway, maybe it was Ultimecia fucking around with Squall’s mental state, but…
As Nightblade said, Squall said he would protect Rinoa from everything. Griever protects Ultimecia. Coincidence?

Another coincidence in regards to the existence of Griever alone. Personally, I don’t go there. I don’t believe in coincidence. Much, anyway.

So back to the subject of powerful-ness. Being more powerful as a GF, maybe Griever had more of a mental effect on someone than most other GFs.

… pause

Okay, that’s it! I’VE HAD IT! Someone really needs to ask Sakaguchi about this!

30

Point 1) True. SeeD never faces any sorceress. BUT… it’s stated in the game that ‘SeeDs are trained to defeat the sorceress.’ SeeD couldn’t have existed for approximately a decade, because when Squall and co. have joined Garden, Garden had existed for a lil’ while AT LEAST, because when Squall had joined Garden, he was around six years old. Garden must have been well established by then. Seventeen minus six equals… ELEVEN! Over a decade at least, as SeeD must have been established at least a little while ago, because it was ‘well known’ and ‘a haven for orphans’, la de da de dah.

You’re saying the exact same thing that I did. I said that the gardens forgot their original mission (which is to take on the sorceress if need be) and it’s stated numerous times in the game. That is why Cid is kind of nostalgic or regretful that SeeD has been reduced to a mercenary-for-hire type organization. The original purpose of the gardens was LONG FORGOTTEN. And I also stated SeeD had to have been around for a little over a decade. So that puts down your arguement that “SeeD has been fighting the sorceress for generations” because no, they only existed for 11 years, and garden totally forgot about and drifted away from what they were formed to do.

Point 2) It’s also stated in-game that ‘SeeD was created to defeat the sorceress’. Adel was a neutralised threat by the time SeeD was created. I mean, since Esthar’s resistance group was trying to knock off Adel, wouldn’t they hire SeeD?

No, because Adel was put down 17 years ago when Laguna came to power. SeeD wasn’t around then, nor did they ever go up against any sorceress, or else it would have been stated in the game. You just managed to contradict yourself with that statement :stuck_out_tongue:

Point 3) The above leads me to another argument. I don’t believe Cid and Edea would tell anyone else about that sorceress that gave her powers to Edea, because if the world learned there was some evil sorceress was out there somewhere, and Edea inhererited HER powers, that would lead the world to the conclusion that Edea was also fucked-up-mega-insane, not to mention evil.

Those facts are established by SeeD’s presence. If they didn’t think that, then SeeD wouldn’t have been formed. She probably didn’t even know who she got the powers from.

So they’d go and KILL her, or possibly seal her, as they did to Adel. And I bet that Edea doen’t want that.

They wouldn’t kill her until they got out of hand. And Edea not want that? The true Edea was a loving and caring matron. I believe she’d sacrifice herself to save the world.

So by themselves, they would soooo not be able to kill Ultimecia. I mean, look at themand tell me that they’re able to defeat the most powerful sorceress of all bloody time. I DON’T THINK SO, BILLY.

I dont get what you mean by this. If you mean SeeD, well Squall and his groupies obviously managed to.

So they start SeeD, and withhold the real reason of which they started SeeD. Remember? It’s said that no-one really knows the secret behind SeeD.

It’s not really a secret, it’s more or less everyone forgetting what they’ve joined to do, and straying away with other tasks…like fighting in civil wars. Just for money. Because garden needed the funds, so of course nobody really cared or wanted to know about garden’s original purpose.

The fact that Edea is a sorceress, who inherited her powers from some evil entity from the future, the fact that they’re training SeeDs for future generations, so that they may one day finish off lil’ Ultimecia.

No, they started training SeeD’s to take down EDEA. They had no idea it was Ultimecia, and they wouldn’t have had any way to realize she was in the future (outside of Esthar, and they don’t communicate with anyone else)

Point 4) Bringing us to the paradox. It’s impossible to truly finish off Ultimecia. See all other evidence.

it’s just a big time loop. In her dimension she’s destroyed, but not in the past, because it obviously hasn’t happened yet. Sounds pretty normal to me.

As we know, GFs cause memory loss. Ultimecia must have had Griever junctioned to her, as it’s impossible to summon a GF without it being junctioned. Being ‘In Squall’s mind, the most powerful GF’, this would have been way more powerful than all ‘normal’ GFs.

And I say again, do you really think she’d let a GF cause her to lose her memory? She’s causes time compression for frig’s sake. She wasn’t in Squall’s mind at all, she was just playing with him and showing him an enemy that seemed to spiritually guide him all of his life.

On the subject of GFs - look at Ultimecia’s GF’s name: Griever. Someone who grieves, a ‘griever’, or to grieve is ‘to feel very sad about something’, quoted from the Collins Cobuild Learner’s Dictionary. Anyway, maybe it was Ultimecia fucking around with Squall’s mental state, but…

Yeah Greiver. Maybe reflecting upon Squall’s life? SInce he’s always whining about something?

As Nightblade said, Squall said he would protect Rinoa from everything. Griever protects Ultimecia. Coincidence?

That is very insufficient evidence to go on. Just because Greiver “protects” Ultimecia doesn’t in any way suggest that she is Rinoa. Squall said that HE would protect Rinoa. You can’t connect his love filled words with “and his non existant GF protects Ultimecia.” Two different statements. Pretty weak.

31

SeeD, DOES FIGHT THE SORCERESS. It’s called the end of Disk 2. Balamb Garden under the command of SeeD vs. the Galbadia Garden under the command of Sorceress Edea. Edea DID NOT recieve her powers from Ultimecia, because the sorceress Edea recieved her powers from died. Cid and Edea knew that someday Edea may lose controll of her powers, and couple that with the idea that the war between Galbadia and Esthar, and the revolutionary war being fought in Esthar… there were a lot of orphans who needed a good home and upbringing. Hence how the main characters could be childhood friends.

As for griever causing Ultimecia to forget… as it’s been said. Ultimecia wasnt your average sorceress, and Griever wasnt your normal GF. The cause for the main chars forgetting so much at the end of the game was a result of Time Kompression, not GF’s.

32

SeeD, DOES FIGHT THE SORCERESS. It’s called the end of Disk 2. Balamb Garden under the command of SeeD vs. the Galbadia Garden under the command of Sorceress Edea.

That’s not what we’re talking about. Our discussion about SeeD’s purpose has to do before all of the shit hit the fan. Comprende? Did SeeD ever face a sorceress before that? No.

33

SeeD’s ORIGINAL purpose was to prepare to fight the sorceress when she rose to power. The missions came for two reasons, funding(it takes a lot to run a para-militarial foundation), and it was incorporated into the training program, giving SeeD’s practical experiance so they wont get slaughtered. Cid was thinking of the future, not the present, when he found Garden. Of fourse they never faced a Sorceress before the first time… thats like saying “i never kissed anyone untill i kissed someone”… or “i never died untill i was killed !”

34

And with those funding activities, everyone strayed from their original purpose. Yes! I’ve said that three times! Thanks for repeating everything I just said.

And no one said anything about not facing a sorceress before the first time…unless you were implying that I did. And I never worded it that way.

35

Ohh… okay… I guess i did do a little re-wording… ohh well, it isnt a big deal. IT wasnt so much that SeeD strayed. It was NORG who who got greedy. You see, NORG viewed Garden as an investment oppourtunity, while Cid still had his romantic idealistic dreams about it. Sooo, it was all NORG’s fualt ! Lets blame the Shumi for everything !!

36

Yes, that’s pretty much the detailed version of it I guess.

37

Yeah it is all NORG’s faut when you think about. He was the one who made them go on the missions to get funding. And when he saw that the time for SeeDs true mission to begin has come, he tried to take over the school. So that he could keep the money rolling in.

38

Rinoa is Ultimecia. Somewhere after the ending of the game, Squall either dies of natural causes or is killed in battle. This is foreshadowed by his “death” in the ending (we are seeing the tortured memory that drives Rinoa over the edge later). Because Rinoa has Griever (the ring which can summon the Griever GF) her memories are slowly erased until all she remembers is that SOMETHING bad happened, not exactly what. This is why she doesn’t recognize Squall, even though she used to be/still is in love with him. This brings up an interesting question of whether or not Ultimecia knows somewhere deep down that, if she doesn’t start terrorizing the world in the past by taking over the sorceresses, she will never meet Squall.

I’d love to hear what any of you think.

~Sid601

39

Wow XD That’s what you call a necropost. Three years plus?

40

Wow.
Three years?
Why would someone dig back that far to post…