To be honest, I feel a bit insulted.

I already explained this: Kuja wanted power. He craved vengeance for his existence. Seymour craved vengeance for his childhood. They were both out to get who they deemed responsible for their misery, regardless of who was in their path. Different trigger of events, same outcome.

I don’t quite get what you are saying here.

C’mon, look at they both do their creepy smiles, the hand movements while they speak, the constant theatrical speech present in every one of their phrases, Seymour’s slightly-too-noticeable eyelashes, Kuja’s makeup. Maybe Seymour’s clothes are the current fashion in Spira but that doesn’t make them precisely manly. The way both of them just love to comment on the Summoner Chick’s beauty for no true reason than just give the impression they don’t consider them a threat. Tell me Seymour is much more masculine that Kuja, I dare you.

I was more encompassing this on the way they speak and treat others. See above.

And as for the last phrase: Kuja is the traitor for excellence. You said it yourself, he used everyone and then later discarded them. Brhane, the Black Mages, Garland himself.

Explaining things over and over thinners my patience at an alarming rate. I do not complain about the cliché, all villains share two or three traits. All stories have similitude between themselves. My anger comes from the fact that so many concepts were directly transplanted without alteration, like how people complain about the FFVII ripoff present in FFTSW.

This thread is getting rather annoying. Just thought I would point that out.

Overall, FFX and FF9 were alot alike in some ways, and alot different in some ways; this whole thread, in less than 30 words. Technicalities are just the details that pull it together in diffrent orders. I agree with Seraphim Ephyon more, though.

I’ve heard lots of people complain that the entire basic storyline of FF6 was transplanted directly from FF2.
There are certain archetypes in characters and situations that you’ll come up against again and again in Japanese games, especially RPGs. You can find similarities wherever you like. Trust me, I get tons of e-mails for the In-Series Crossover sections where people claim “X place looks a lot like Y place” or “the music here sounds a lot like the music there” or “these two guys are so similar, maybe it’s a reference”. Truth be told, there isn’t a lot of originality in RPGs. Never really was.

There aren’t too many reasons for a villain to do what he does - either no reason is given, or it’s madness, or revenge, or desire for power. Bam, end of story. As for the appearance, you might as well compare them to Sephiroth, Ansem, Ghaleon, etc. etc. All I’m saying is that while there certainly are similarities, I don’t consider them any more overbearing than similarities in RPGs as a genre.

First of all, nobody is forcing you to read this if you find it so annoying. Second, nobody asked you to summarize, but it wouldn’t hurt you to actually get it right: I am precisely talking about the aspects that are absolutely equal. I am not accusing the entire game of being a copy and the fact that there are differences in other unmentioned aspects of the game is entirely irrelevant to my point.

There is a difference between similarities and exact similitude. I have not played FF2 so I cannot comment on that, but if there was indeed a matter of copy in those games, there is something to take into account: That was years ago. To judge both FF6 and FFX under the same light, with today’s standards for video games and required originality would be unfair.

And back on the actual matter, I’ll repeat myself for the third time: I have nothing against clichés, they are unavoidable and not necessarily a bad thing, but that doesn’t mean that every character should have a doppelganger. Play FFVI, then FFVII, then FFVIII, then FFIX, then whatever else you like: There are inescapable similarities that nobody really cares about, what I am pointing out here is a, forgive the redundancy, exact unaltered copy of concepts that were used in the immediate predecessor of the series. Sephiroth is not the same as Kuja, Kuja is not the same as Kefka, Sephiroth is not the same as Kefka, so why is Seymour the same as Kuja?

I was going to go on in a nice tirade of that comment, but instead decided against it. I agreed with you, for the most part. No need to get MOODY.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree here. I didn’t find Seymour to be more similar to Kuja than to Sephiroth or Ghaleon or any other RPG villain. In fact, I don’t think there was a single moment in FFX which reminded me directly of FF9 - and I’ve completed both games at least four times.

Fine enough.

Warsong 2

Never played it, but I’ll assume it’s the exception to the rule. :sunglasses:

Or Tales of Phantasia :smiley:

I am that young goofy and cheerful blond kid and my mission is to protect the beautiful summoner from danger, primarily coming from the effeminate villain who desires to bring death to all.

I don’t think things are quite as copy and pasted as you think. While Tidus and Zidane are both young and blond, I wouldn’t exactly call Tidus goofy and cheerful. Awkward and sulky, actually. Zidane’s mission is to protect the beautiful princess. Yes Garnet is later discovered to be a summoner, and it is important to the story, but it is never her primary role. I am going to have to say that I find Seymore far more masculine than Kuja. I actually thought he had a pot belly because of his outfit design the first time I saw him. ^_^;; Seymore’s facial structure is no more feminine that Tidus’, in my opinion.

Besides that, many of the remaining characteristics are superficial or almost universal. Okay, so the two protagonists are young and blonde. So was Cloud. Most, if not all, of the female characters in FFs are beautiful. The mission often starts out protecting a beautiful girl, before evolving to include a much more wide-spread mission (Terra, Aeris, Rinoa. Heck, Rydia could count in FFIV). And most of the villains either desire to kill everyone, or have plans that will wind up killing everyone. That’s why the heroes are after them.

I’m not saying you don’t have a point. I found it greatly amusing that the comparison could be made somewhat accurately. But I didn’t feel as if anything had been copied. There are similiarities, but not exact similitude. My opinion is that both games are different enough to stand on their own.

You know Cless and Shinryu, if you look ahrd enough, you’ll always find an exception, however, that doesn’t change the overwhelming amount that do conform. For everyone you point out that doesn’t conform, we could probably find ten more that do.

Tidus doesn’t have the same mood all the time. He is obviously sulky when the situation calls for it but his “normal” mood, as in when he’s not thinking about his father or soon-to-be-dead love interest, is very similar to Rikku’s. The “superficial” (Read: most commonly seen) facet of his personality is the same as Zidane’s, regardless of the fact that he is a confused frightened guy in the inside in the same manner Zidane has his odd sort of wisdom.

Personal opinion, nothing against that. I’d have to slightly agree if it where ONLY his appearance, but when you add up his behavior, the way he speaks, his expressions and his voice… well, look below for a better explanation of my point.

Protecting the beautiful girl is typical cliché, protecting the beautiful summoner girl the villain (Or neutrality-challenged individual if the term suits your fancy) is after and you are in love with even though her social status/all-important mission supposedly put her in an unreachable pedestal, is copy.

For the fourth time, similarities like the hair color or esthetic beauty by themselves are not my point. Tifa, Rinoa and Garnet all looked like resized copies of each other, but did not share all traits. Being similar in certain aspects is not wrong, but there is a line where those similarities just become too much. By themselves these traits do not matter, but when you get the all together it goes beyond a simple look-alike.

And that’s the last time I reply to something like that. No anger directed at nobody, but repeating myself is a personal pet peeve of mine, and if I explain this for a fifth time I’m going to blow an aggression inhibitor.

I’m still going to disagree on their surface personalities (I think we both agree that underneath they’re different). Zidane I agree is goofy and playful. Tidus is energetic, but in a prideful almost arrogant way. Now that you mention it, Rikku’s cheerfulness is closer to Zidane’s than Tidus’ is. I never really thought of Tidus’ and Rikku’s personalities as being comparible except in the fact that they are both optimists, and similarly I don’t think Tidus and Zidane are truly comparible. I think we just have different interpretations of the characters here.

He was certainly graceful, soft-spoken, and verbose, but I don’t classify any of those as being specifically feminine. I’ll admit that his voice does have a slightly feminine tone, but that’s not enough for me to classify him as feminine. I think another point we’ll have to agree to disagree on.

The only thing specific to this scenario that isn’t copied a million times in a million different avenues is the summoner part. After all, the hero is protecting her because the villain wants her, and the villain wants her because of political leverage (social status) or because of her usefulness (special abilities) or because her all important mission goes against his own goals. Often the hero and protectee fall in love, and the love is “unrealistic” in order for there to be plot conflict. Can’t make things too easy. By your logic, FFIX is copying FFVIII, except that instead of being specifically a summoner, it’s the user of a rare magic. Squall is an orphan and a mercenary, like Zidane. Rinoa is the daughter of one of the leaders of her country (a general) who is rebelling against the evil she sees. Rinoa is desired by the villain when she becomes the sorceress. It’s honestly a standard fantasy formula.

Since you say the cliches aren’t what bother you, I’m going to assume that the main thing that’s bothering you is that both protectees are summoners (besides the fact that we disagree on characterization. ^_^;;). I think this is more of a consequence of both games trying to retrace their roots and give their characters specific classes. Since the summoner class is so powerful, and usually rare, the character that has that class is often in danger from the villain (like Rydia in FFIV), and therefore needs to be protected. I can understand being disappointed that they used such a similar device in both games, but I personally felt that there were enough differences in the portrayal to make it still enjoyable.

My apologies for bringing up the physical similarities. I was just responding to the phrase as a whole, but I can see how that would get annoying. I’m not sure if you’re saying you’re not going to debate anymore, or just not on that last point. If you decide not to reply, I’d understand. Whether we agree or not, I think it’s an interesting point you’ve brought up. There are more similarities than normal. Maybe they decided that after having a dead summoner society in FFIX, they wanted to explore what a flourishing one in FFX?

Tidus and Seymour: Well, I’m not going to shove my opinions down your throat.

The last time I talk about copies: To put it simply: The first time I noticed these things I brushed it off, the second time I thought it was curious, the third I arched my eyebrow and the fourth I was “Didn’t I play this already?”. The romance is cliché, which is fine, but then I add how alike I think Garnet and Yuna are, Zidane and Tidus, Kuja and Seymour, the whole “death=peace” concept, and so on…

And something else: And I wouldn’t call FFX’s Summoner Society “flourishing”. Summoners are scarce, mainly since every single one either dies on the trip, dies at the end, or quits and becomes a priest. I’m still waiting to see a Madain Sari-esque city that is not in complete ruins (I’m looking at you, real Zanarkand).

Flourishing was perhaps the wrong word. More important to the world’s culture perhaps?

However, I do see where you’re coming from. While we may not agree on characterization issues, based on how you see the characters, there would be a very noticeable parallel there. I do agree with you that FFX took the death=peace thing from FFIX, but I also feel that it was pulled off better in FFX. Necron coming out of nowhere sort of bugged me.

Despite our differences in opinion, I’ve enjoyed the discussion. I’m sorry if I aggravated you. I enjoy debating, and sometimes don’t know when to quit.

I won’t disagree with you, but perhaps some people might like to know of some games that don’t conform, hmm? :slight_smile:

Seraphim, I always have fun reading you. And JD, the same goes for you. The way you see and play the games is so much different (more profound) than I ever did. One of the reasons that I joined this forum was to read how other gamers feel about the games that I already played, or might play in the near future. It’s almost like having a bunch of Ebert & Roeper RPGs critics :wink:
The similarities between FFIX and FFX are uncanny. But, maybe you would enjoy FFX more if you didn’t compare the game to its predecessor? Just play it as a side quest to the Blitzball game – a way to recruit the best players for your team…
Ha-ha-ha!
Seriously though, I know that you have been waiting to play FFX for quite a while; don’t let the disappointment in this game turn you off the future installments in the series.

Oh yah, JD you should post more. You are the classyest “newfie” that I have ever known :wink:

okay, so FF’s stories arent totally original, but still…
FF1: ime-loop thing was neat.
FF2: pretty straightforward.
FF5: Somewhat interesting. Got better near the end.
FF7: Uh… wha… could someone explain that? (no seriously, i dont get it)
FF8: More beliveable and easier to follow than 7. Not too bad…
FF9: Somewhat interesting. Some similarities to Dragon Ball Z, but what a romantic ending.
FF10: whoa, so many twists im dizzy… again, cool, sad, somewhat romantic (though ultimately predictable) ending.
FF10-2: ugh, a sequel. wish it were its own game. it would have been better like that.
Tactics Advance: Not too original, but serves as an efficient-enough backdrop for a strategy game.

Ultimately, i like their stories;the only games ive seen with a story that comes even close to theirs are Kingdom Hearts (which they had a hand in) and Golden Sun (which did have an original story).