To be honest, I feel a bit insulted.

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NON-TAGGED FFX SPOILERS

I understand that Final Fantasy games are not famous for having greatest variety of storylines ever. While the settings change, the general idea of the struggle remains more or less in the same wavelength of “Stopping the bad dude” and “Save the planet” besides for each one having their respective theme, to put it in an overly simplified manner. So I was not expecting anything too radical when I picked FFX, because it’s those changes inflicted upon each game that can manage to squeeze so great a number of possibilities and different results from these seemingly unchanged bases.

That is of course, as long as those changes EXIST.

So I find myself immersed in the endangered world of Spira threatened by the mysterious beast Sin. I am that young goofy and cheerful blond kid and my mission is to protect the beautiful summoner from danger, primarily coming from the effeminate villain who desires to bring death to all.

And that’s when it clicks in: That last phrase in italics is directly interchangeable with FFIX.

Goofy cheerful blonde protagonist? Hey, Zidane!
Beautiful high-class and respected summoner? Well, Dagger, how are you?
Effeminate evil dude with a tendency to give out theatrical speeches? Kuja, how have you been?
Bring Death to Bring Peace? Why, Necron, you look great!

The course of events in the love story section of the plot are even equal to those of IX. Yuna hasn’t gone mute yet but I already saw the “Oh well, I will never be together with her might as well resign myse-WHAT THE HECK AM I SAYING? THAT’S MY GIRL!” part and how Yuna was pretty close to leaving the rulership of Alexandria-I mean, the Pilgrimage on hold. The second time you fight Seymour, In Bevelle, he even looks like Necron.

At this point I’m a little angry that the developers decided to copy-paste their scripts in such an obvious manner, but even more so about the fact that the copies are of lower quality than the originals:

I don’t hate Tidus, he’s a pretty realistic character and all but he can’t hold a candle to Zidane of the charisma subject. Is saw the “Making out in the lake” scene and his attempt to cheer Yuna was good, but when Zidane tried to cheer people up or explain their behaviors, his dialogues where beautiful and he also knew when to keep his mouth shut. Tidus would be fine by himself if it weren’t for the fact that he’s playing the same role as the monkey boy, with a distinctively lower ability.

Yuna doesn’t click. I don’t know what it is but I can’t bring myself to give a hoot about her. I know I should but her whole character is… meh. This doesn’t make sense because she’s playing the same exact same role Garnet was, who by the way is my favorite FF female, but it just doesn’t work. I also can’t understand how a game that has such a perfectly in-character voice like Wakka can also have another one so forced and perpetually stuck in the melancholic mood even when she’s laughing.

Seymour would be a passable Kuja. I’d just like to point out that while both of them did tiresome ramblings, Kuja’s were a bit more… what’s the word? Dramatic? Meaningful? Well written? The difference is minimum, but it’s there.

Death is the true peace: This just pissed me off. It’s the EXACT SAME CONCEPT.

I’ll give the game some more time, It has a great gameplay and everything else is looking pretty good, but I just wanted to point this out. Even though it has probably been talked about before, given the game’s age. I’m just past the Calm Plains now, so please mind the spoilers.

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A lot of what you’re complaining about is universal to RPGs, not just Final Fantasy. The whole “maybe I shouldn’t continue”, “protect the princess/summoner/magic gal”, “save the world”, etc. are cliches already.

Perhaps you’re being unfair in comparing FF9 to FFX. Sure, Zidane was better at what he did, but that’s precisely because he was a ladies’ man. Tidus is a bit of a nerd and a jock at the same time, which is intentional. He’s not this suave James Bond character. He’s too confused to pull it off.

Seymour is worlds away from Kuja. Kuja is really, truly nutso. Seymour is just hurting on the inside and very angry at the world. He’s more of a smooth sonofabitch. Also, his idea of “death through peace” differs from Kuja. Kuja is more “I love you all, so I will kill you! AHAHAHAHAH!”. The difference in FFX is that Spira really is miserable. Many scenes reiterate this point. Seymour does, perhaps, have a sounder footing in his mistrued ideas.

Finally, Yuna certainly can sound happy and carefree (play FFX-2). The reason she’s sad is because, well, she’s going to die. She’s a martyr for her country. That’d make me sad, even when I tried to be happy. When someone is really, truly depressed, even laughing would have that tinge of depression behind it. Having said that, her voice did grate on me. ^^;

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Hey, hey, I wasn’t complaining about that. I put special care in mentioning that Final Fantasy has a knack for giving life to epic adventures from these same clichés, what I am angry about was that the formula in this case isn’t “based” or “inspired”, it’s a direct ripoff down to the little details.

I understand that. Tidus would have been perfect should the events had been a bit different, but when he is put in the same place as Zidane, the only thing that shines about him are his defects. Leave the cheering for Rikku and stick him into a more fitting spot.

I was more pointing at Necron there. The ideal is precisely the same: As long as life continues there will be suffering, for that I shall bring death, the true peace, to all. True, the concept is more fitting in this case, but it’s still the exact same idea.

And I strongly disagree with Kuja being completely nuts. This isn’t Kefka we’re talking about, Kuja was born as a weapon of destruction, only to be replaced once the true Angel of Death was completed. He hated his own nature for being that of a puppet, he hated his brother for being his replacement and above all, he hated the man that gave him such a meaningless life.

The genocide and destruction prior to his Trance were not his goal, they were just means of achieving his goals. He initially didn’t want to destroy everything, he wanted to rule it. When you take a look at his story, it’s clear that his desire to overcome all is driven by a pretty obvious inferiority complex that took priority over everything. He wasn’t nuts for not caring about killing people, he was born for that purpose only, and yet deviated from it. In the end, when he realizes that all his work, all his attempts to rid himself from his captivity, all his life was in vain, THAT is where he quite understandably loses it.

Mikoto even says it in the ending: He was the first of them that attempted to defy their own nature and actually “live”. I got Seymour’s reasons spoiled a while ago, and I really can’t say he has a sounder footing.

Okay, maybe I’ll give her VA another chance, but I didn’t express myself correctly: Her tone, her voice, everything is always unchanging no matter the ambient, she can’t even pull off the “sadness” correctly. And I still stand on this: It sounds like she is reading line by line from the script, a pretty awful thing for one of the characters with most of the meaningful dialogue.

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Honestly, I thought you meant that you were mad at FFX spoilers that weren’t tagged.

I think Kuja gets a lot of bad flack. I never found a problem with him. Now Seymour has everything he needs to be a good villian. I even liked his voice. The problem is, I understand Kuja. The storyline makes it where Zidane parallels Kuja, but they both are interconnected in what their meant to do…if my memory is correct anyway. I had a bit of sympathy for Kuja, as Zidane did, because it’s readily appearent that Zidane could have just as easily turned out like Kuja. He does bad things, but it’s not because of some sort of madness that’s been afflicted upon him like Kefka. It’s a madness that’s forged out of complete and utter despair. It’s a madness that’s more human, and easier to accept.

Seymour does bad things. I don’t feel that bad for him because he chose the life he chose. Sure, when you go to Zanarkand you can see a bit of Seymour’s past but I really don’t see how that’s much an excuse at all for what he did. That’s the reason why Zidane didn’t hate Kuja but Tidus obviously despises Seymour as long as well, pretty much everyone else with his party.

What really should have happened, is maybe just fifteen minutes more about Seymour in the game, spread around maybe to make people look at him as more than just an insane, egotistical person. Fifteen more minutes to develop his character, to help me remember him.

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The funny thing is, the only reason Zidane didn’t turn out like Kuja was because Kuja threw him into Gaia before Garland could educate him. Genomes are constructs, and Zidane is nothing more than an improved version of Kuja. Given these facts, the environment they are raised in is the only factor that determines their differences. Zidane owes his brother big time.

My point exactly.

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Wow, this thread is deep.

I think to sum it up for those not concerned with long essay-debate threads: :boring:

FFX was a poor remake of FF9. Disagree, whatever.

FFX was realistic, and moody. FF9 was pure fantasy and somewhat more cheery.

FFX Seymour was an underdramatic and undertheatric Kuja of FF9(although they both had interesting taste in clothes and hair).

FFX Tidus was too cheery for the main theme of the game. FF9 Zidane started out cheery, but ended up rather moody to fit the plot.

More or less the basic point?

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Seymour isn’t the villain of FFX, he was just thrown in for dramatic flair and to give the storyline a boost. Sure, he’s the closest thing FFX has to a real villain but by the final fight with Seymour he means almost nothing. It’s obvious in the times you fight him: the first time you fight him almost everybody has something to say to him but Kimahri, the second time thats cut in half, the third time only Yuna and Kimahri and the last time nobody, maybe Yuna don’t remember fully.

So although there are similarities to FFIX, FFX isn’t a cut and paste.

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Huh, strange how I didn’t notice this at all until reading this thread. Now every time I play either game I’m going to be preoccupied with it, thanks guys. :stuck_out_tongue:

I agree with Yuna’s VA not being all that great in FFX. The main thing that bothers me is that it sounds like she’s taking the Shatner approach to her lines (but I’m pretty sure it’s just to match up to the lip synch :P). She improved a lot in FFX-2, though.

words, Tidus obviously despises Seymour, words

Pff, boy’s just jealous cuz zombie-man got to marry his girl. :stuck_out_tongue:

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This makes no sense.

For starters, Kuja is not the “true” villain in FFIX either. The first time you fight him it’s just a trick to Trance him and the second time it’s just a fight against an insane desperate man with little to no identity left, which only works as a warm-up before Necron.

And what is Seymour then? How do you call a guy who repeatedly tries to kill you, do traditionally evil stuff like kidnapping the chick, sending you off to die, wishing death upon all, etc? A neutrality-challenged NPC? Since when being the End Game Boss is a requirement for being considered a villain?

FFX Tidus was too cheery for the main theme of the game. FF9 Zidane started out cheery, but ended up rather moody to fit the plot.

Eh? What are you talking about?

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Near the end, when he found out about who he really was, you have to admit he got a little bit moody. Like that large scene when he was walking through that hallway with his friends trying to help; he was being a real arse.

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Large scene? Five minutes. Even less if you don’t count the fighting, and then he went right back to how he was before. As a matter of fact, Zidane holds the record for the shortest and lowest amount of emotional problems on the Playstation FFs.

Zidane’s character is static. He doesn’t change during the course of the game, he only seems more serious towards the end simply because the situation calls for a more serious approach. You can still see him as cheerful as usual when he convinces/forces Mikoto into helping with the evacuation, approximately twenty minutes after he realized he was Garland’s Angel of Death.

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I never looked at FFX that way and after reading this, I’m gonna have to get 9 again >.>

Ehh, I didn’t really care you know…call me stupid but I just like to play the games to pass time. I don’t usually look too hard into the similarities between FF’s, mostly because I just want to play it, not debate about whether it’s got more in common with previous FF’s or not, but that’s just me.

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Seymour is different in that you know of Sin from the very beginning of the game and are constantly fighting him. Yo know about FF10’s final bad guy much longer than you do in many FFs. Seymour is there creating more problems and creating a more human threat. Necron just pops-up at the end, but Sin is there from start to finish. A bad guy more comparable to Necron would be the guy you fight after Sin (I forget his name), but even then, his part sort of ties several story elements together and has more of a point to not be known about so early, unlike Necron. Kuja is different from Seymour in that he does seem to be the main bad guy and is causing a bunch of problems, but then his part is just sort of ruined near the end.

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I think you are all missing my point here, and you are pointing out technicalities. Seymour is A villain, maybe not THE villain but he still plays the part. Who cares if neither him nor Kuja are End Game Bosses, I was referring to how their characters are so much alike, not to whether or not they are the ones in charge.

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That’s just it though, Seymour and Kuja are quite different. Kuja is for the most part running the show. He’s causing most of the trouble and is pretty much the bad guy of FF9. Seymour on the other hand is more of an annoyance. In many ways he’s like Ultros, but not funny. Both of them make things difficult for the heroes, but the world won’t end with both of them doing their stuff. In FF9 you are going after Kuja until you find out that there is a little bit more behind him. In FF10, Seymour just causes you problems and is extra battles. He’s no different than the dragon guarding the cave or something in any other game. Seymour is like any other boss in any RPG that you fight and go past. The only difference is that he is given a little bit more backstory.

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And you are still missing my point. I’m not talking about what each one does, but how they do it. Their motivations, dialogues, esthetic appearance, general demeanor, everything about them is practically the same. I’m focusing on the characters here, just how much relevance each one has for the final outcome of events is meaningless to my argument.

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I haven’t really read this thread, but your comparisons between Zidane and Tidus are kind of weak because Zidane was ready for adventure - he was part of whatever little crew he was a part of and they were swashbucklers to the very end. Tidus was a sports star who knew nothing about fighting at all, and was homesick the entire time. He never shut up about missing Zanarkand.

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If you are comparing them like that, then they are even more different.

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And that’s why you should have read the thread, Cid already pointed this out and I already answered. I repeat: Tidus’ character is jut fine for his own situation, but his role in the party does not favor him at all.

Care to elaborate?

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Sure.

Motivations:
Their motivations are pretty different. Kuja was originally sent on a mission, but changed as time went on. Seymour turned bad after his childhood and was constantly searchign for power. Kuja was more insane in a Kefka kind of way, while Seymour craved power and was angry, so he used the power he did have.

Dialogue:
Maybe, but their speech wasn’t really any closer than any other characters, but whtever.

Appearance:
Kuja dressed like a slut and looked like a chick, Seymour looked like other males of Spira. I thought that Kuja was a chick the first time I saw him. Their appearances are nothing alike. Yuna in FFX-2 is closer in appearance to Kuja than anybody else really.

Demeanor:
They had quite different personalities. Kuja was very manipulative and used other achieve his goals. Kuja acted like a puppeteer, pulling on everyone’s strings to accomplish his goals. Seymour acted alone and manuevered around some of the systems. Seymour was quicker to turn on those aiding him at any point.

They are different people. Sure they have some common aspects, but that is to be expected with a bad guy.

Also, as Cid said earlier, this could apply to many RPGs. Such as if you don’t buy this, you should have felt cheated a long time ago.