I’ll never be able to look at Edgar again without thinking of Ted Baxter. :ah-ha!:
Random encounters always bug me.
Wil, the problem is that video games are not “fiction”. They require interaction, they have a system of reward and punishment and various challenges to do. If everything would be perfectly realistic, you’d have an excruciating game.
Saving Points: Why are these still used on games in this day and age? Don’t we have the technology to save the game at any time?
Of course we have the technology, but if everyone could save all the time this would probably make the game very very easy in most cases (exceptions: games where your HP is refilled in every battle anyway).
Of course, a quicksave (where your data is erased when loaded) should indeed be included in every single game at this point. For some reason it’s only caught on with handhelds.
And why cannot we see the characters wearing their new armors? Again, we have the technology already! Same thing with their weapons.
Nothing to do with technology. Every bit of extra design means extra time and cost to the development team. Put simply, it’s a question of, say, adding an extra dungeon or side quest or five vs. creating dozens or hundreds of little 3D models of armor pieces.
Indeed, that is why I mentioned that you have to abstract many aspects of reality in a game (like the flow of time). But you need to have some degree of realism or it turns into a cartoon, not a thrilling adventure. To me, the most important bits are the ones dealing with the characters’ motivations. I need to care about the characters, or at least understand them.
Of course we have the technology, but if everyone could save all the time this would probably make the game very very easy in most cases (exceptions: games where your HP is refilled in every battle anyway).
How so? with the exception of using quick saving to cheat on minigames (by reloading every time you lose) I don’t see how saving often makes the game too simple. (Note that I would leave the HP, MP etc. the same from play to play.)
Nothing to do with technology. Every bit of extra design means extra time and cost to the development team. Put simply, it’s a question of, say, adding an extra dungeon or side quest or five vs. creating dozens or hundreds of little 3D models of armor pieces.
Sorry, not convinced. You would need only a handful of armor designs (maybe with a few palette swaps) to represent their armor changes (especially if we assume that all the characters have the same measurements, which is not realistic but hey, I’m willing to abstract that.) There aren’t THAT many styles of armor, you know. Weapons would be a bit more varied, but again, I’m not asking for having ridiculously ornamented weaponry- just basic shapes. Considering all the needless extras they add in games to wow us with (like textures in dungeons) these days, I’m sure they could save some room for extra equipment graphics if they wanted.
Originally Posted by Wilfredo Martinez
Indeed, that is why I mentioned that you have to abstract many aspects of reality in a game (like the flow of time). But you need to have some degree of realism or it turns into a cartoon, not a thrilling adventure. To me, the most important bits are the ones dealing with the characters’ motivations. I need to care about the characters, or at least understand them.
I believe you’re getting your cliches mixed up with your stereotypes. For instance an Obi-wan type character is considered a stereotype while an Obi-wan type character who is offed by a Vader like antagonist is a cliche. Magical bags of holding and invincible wooden doors are neither cliches or stereotypes simply because if you start running around applying real world physics to doors and such then you’re gonna have to start applying them to other things too like walls and such (“Hey! This brick and mortar wall has been here for centuries. Why do we even need to concern ourselves with doors and passageways when we can just make our own?”) then things will start to get really messy.
How so? with the exception of using quick saving to cheat on minigames (by reloading every time you lose) I don’t see how saving often makes the game too simple. (Note that I would leave the HP, MP etc. the same from play to play.)
Fixed savepoints have their uses too. For instance that conspicuously placed savepoint over there by that great big ornate doorway might mean that there’s a boss fight beyond that door, or that savepoints could act as targets for transportation spells and such like FFXII. Of course saving anywhere can have it’s downsides too like if you get trapped in a maze with no way out saving in there will have effectively undone everything you’ve done up til then, and then of course there’s doing something that will cause you to miss something else that you were planning to go back and do.
Sorry, not convinced. You would need only a handful of armor designs (maybe with a few palette swaps) to represent their armor changes (especially if we assume that all the characters have the same measurements, which is not realistic but hey, I’m willing to abstract that.) There aren’t THAT many styles of armor, you know. Weapons would be a bit more varied, but again, I’m not asking for having ridiculously ornamented weaponry- just basic shapes. Considering all the needless extras they add in games to wow us with (like textures in dungeons) these days, I’m sure they could save some room for extra equipment graphics if they wanted.
There are a couple of problems with this though. First if you’re playing a game with hundreds of pieces of armour it would get extremely tedious to program them all in there. Second even if they’re all in there chances are these pieces aren’t going to look very different at all from one to another. Third they’re going to look like they were lifted straight out of a D&D handbook (i.e. incredibly simple) and unfortunately this leads to the fourth problem which is. That many characters rely on their appearance as a personality trait to help separate them from other characters in similar roles, and without a unique appearance they’re nothing more than a miserable little pile of stats! (much like every MMORPG out there).
Of course it can still be done while allowing a character to keep an unique appearance. Just look at most of the Zelda games for an example. It’s just one character, two or three outfits, and a couple of accessories like boots and shields. I wouldn’t expect it to get more complicated than that without losing something else in return though.
Nintendo DS cartridges uses chips called EEPROMS (Electrically Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory) or more rarely FLASH memory for saving. Those have a limited amount of uses before they risk failure (Not quite like old battery saves, but the electric current will eventually wear down the hardware) and so it is a required guideline that the user is NOT allowed to save excessively.
Now, by excessively, I mean ‘the game autosaves when you take a step’ or ‘everytime you press Select’, it needs to save over 250 times in 10 minutes to automatically fail submission. Every console manufacturer has a similar rule regarding their hardware and how saving is handled. But ultimatly, it comes down to a simple thing:
Save points are really easy to handle as a designer compared to save-anywhere. It’s easier to control difficulty that way, you can’t as a player screw yourself over by saving after crossing a door of no return leading to a boss you cannot beat because you did not grind enough because the save is before that door, for example. Also, the more the user saves, the higher the likelyhood of a fuck-up and data corruption, it’s just a matter of statistics.
Just my 2 cents, from a game tester’s perspective. :mwahaha:
I believe you’re getting your cliches mixed up with your stereotypes.
I’m not, though the list above certainly does. But again, I just posted it so we can chuckle at it.
if you start running around applying real world physics to doors and such then you’re gonna have to start applying them to other things too like walls and such
Not really. Knocking down a door in a dungeon makes sense; knocking down a wall might bring the whole room down on your head.
if you get trapped in a maze with no way out saving in there will have effectively undone everything you’ve done up til then,
That would only happen on a poorly designed game. Also: Multiple save slots?
It’s just one character, two or three outfits, and a couple of accessories like boots and shields. I wouldn’t expect it to get more complicated than that without losing something else in return though.
Then how come games like FFV or FFX2 had literally dozens of costume variations for every character when they changed Jobs? They can program that in but not do the same in a game without Job switches?
Nintendo DS cartridges uses chips called EEPROMS (Electrically Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory) or more rarely FLASH memory for saving. Those have a limited amount of uses before they risk failure (Not quite like old battery saves, but the electric current will eventually wear down the hardware) and so it is a required guideline that the user is NOT allowed to save excessively.
So (at least in the DS case) its still a technological limitation? Still, the way computer tech has been advancing, I wouldn’t be surprised if they fixed that in the very near future.
In any case, at the very least, every game should give you the option to save on the World Map- especially before entering (or after leaving) a dungeon or town. Not all do, and that TRULY baffles me.
The DSi may solve this for games that will run off the SD Card slot.
Otherwise…not for a couple more years.
Well…to be technical, you can pull off Real-Time Saving on certain “things” (that use MircoSD cards) that I’ve read about. (Sorry if I’m being dodgy about this, don’t know if this kinda stuff can be mentioned on this board.) But if it’s possible using that, the DS should be able to pull off something similar.
But I agree with the EEPROMS thing as too much saving can screw stuff up with those things. Flash memory is the same to an extent, though that stops working eventually (takes a long time however).
Do people really press select that often? I find that select is the button that gets the least use from me in every console that has it.
Indeed, that is why I mentioned that you have to abstract many aspects of reality in a game (like the flow of time). But you need to have some degree of realism or it turns into a cartoon, not a thrilling adventure. To me, the most important bits are the ones dealing with the characters’ motivations. I need to care about the characters, or at least understand them.
I don’t disagree; but the vast majority of these “cliches” are related to the game “physics” and realism rather than the story, and my argument is that it’s a bad idea to even try to make those “realistic”. Imagine a game where you’d literally have to eat, crap and sleep in real time. Gak. X-X
How so? with the exception of using quick saving to cheat on minigames (by reloading every time you lose) I don’t see how saving often makes the game too simple. (Note that I would leave the HP, MP etc. the same from play to play.)
Quite simply, because you could reload every time you lose a regular battle, too, and in some games this would diminish the challenge, e.g. of forcing you to get through a whole dungeon at once where the regular battles are challenigng. If you could save after every battle, after a while it just becomes a matter of reloading to get the results you want.
Sorry, not convinced. You would need only a handful of armor designs (maybe with a few palette swaps) to represent their armor changes (especially if we assume that all the characters have the same measurements, which is not realistic but hey, I’m willing to abstract that.) There aren’t THAT many styles of armor, you know.
You’d be very surprised. In any case, if they’re already going through the trouble of making armor look different, they’d want it to look different from each other. Otherwise you’d get griping about how there are only five armor models despite there being eighty pieces of armor. You can’t win.
Considering all the needless extras they add in games to wow us with (like textures in dungeons) these days, I’m sure they could save some room for extra equipment graphics if they wanted.
Um… textures are “extras”? You’d prefer walls that are all the same color and look like a Lego piece?
That would only happen on a poorly designed game. Also: Multiple save slots?
Exactly - a game that lets you save anywhere is often poorly designed. My point exactly. 8p Also: Multiple save slots only work if you know in advance that you’re entering a place of no return, and often for suspense/challenge purposes the designers don’t want to tell you that in advance.
Then how come games like FFV or FFX2 had literally dozens of costume variations for every character when they changed Jobs? They can program that in but not do the same in a game without Job switches?
The difference is that the costumes were one big separate model (i.e. the entire character model changed), and designed specifically for each character. It’s not a whole bunch of tiny 3D models which need to be able to be switched in and out and also to look good on several character models instead of just one.
Like I said, a “quicksave” option should be required in modern games. Regular saves, maybe not, and I can see why, but quicksaves should definitely be always available.
I had a much longer reply written up chocked full of math and programming knowledge too, but it’s gone now so I’m just going to add my two cents to the discussion.
Btw, before I go into rant mode I would like to agree with Cid that we really need more quicksaves (especially with systems like the PSX and the 360 around).
Originally Posted by Wilfredo Martinez
Then how come games like FFV or FFX2 had literally dozens of costume variations for every character when they changed Jobs? They can program that in but not do the same in a game without Job switches?
As Cid said it would take a tremendous amount of time, effort, and programming to achieve what you want. For 2D sprites each character has to have his or her appearance designed and stored into memory once for every change made to the character which includes class, weapons, shields, armor, and movement. For every step the character has to go through at the very least two different forms. To do something aside from walking like fighting, jumping, or climbing ladders more appearances must be made for that character to cover each action. And all that must be done for each class that character changes into. And all that must then be integrated to look like the character is taking a step when he or she moves in a direction so that when a character reaches a rope or ladder he or she will look like they’re climbing said rope or ladder and so on. For a character to change anymore than that a whole new set of designs featuring the change must be made and programmed into the game. Weapons (at least in FF V’s case) are an exception due to the fact that they can be programmed separately from the characters and attached later. But to do all of this with other equipment like armor and helmets would require designing sets for every combination of equipment and programming to implement each change while keeping the jumbled mess looking natural.
But doing it your way and attaching equipment sprites to the character’s sprite would be even more difficult to do because now you’re worrying about things like timing, framerates, slowdown, and how close you can keep that piece of kibble in the right place. Though if players start to input too many commands at once then even the best programming won’t be able to keep up and then suddenly a character is marching forward naked to attack while her armor is trying to keep up. And the same thing could happen if the programmer forgot to program a movement for a piece of equipment (imagine if you will, a character taking a hit and is literally knocked out of her clothes).
I can only assume that programming 3D models is easier with all these options since I see far more examples of games that do allow your kibble to appear on your character (don’t quote me on that though since I haven’t worked with 3D models yet).
But there’s a couple of important things that I want to point out. First compare FF V with FFs IV and VI. Note how similar the level of graphics are between IV and V and then note how different the level of graphics are between V and VI. To get a better idea compare FF V with BoF and tell me which looks better. Now compare story quality between FFs V and X-2 to FF games that don’t allow class changes. Can you see how much FF V suffered in those areas to provide the system it had.
Also a thing I don’t like about changing your appearance with equipment is that often times you come to a point where you find this piece of equipment that you really like but has shit stats. And so you’re forced to make a decision between wearing the kibble at get risk to yourself, or roam the countryside in a Sauron shaped tank. Another thing with this is that to compete with other high level characters you’re going to be needing that armor and thus you’re going to be in a game where everyone looks the same (or very similar at least, I’m referring to MMOs by the way as they frequently do this).
I could go on but there’s way to much to cover. Let’s just say that it’s EXTREMELY complicated.
I’ve only seen two games that do the “armor changes appearance” thing well. One is Tales of the Abyss, where your appearance changes based on your current title (which doesn’t affect gameplay). The other is Rogue Galaxy, in which “outfits” don’t really affect stats.
And yet in those cases the changes are once again full costume changes. The best example I can think of was the Zelda one I mentioned 10 posts ago (think OoT/TP).
Actually, Killmore, to clarify on your Zelda mention, it’s a good amount of the games that do costume changes(LoZ, LoZ:ALttP, LoZ:OoT, LoZ:WW, LoZ:TP, and maybe one or two more).
Anyways, I agree with Killmore on this. It would be WAY to time consuming to do all the seperate sprites for each piece of equipment. Look at it this way, it takes a few years to design and create a decent RPG. Now, add in the extra time for adding in changes for equipment, and you could add on a few more months, maybe even another year.
Basically, it’s not cost effective, gamer friendly(as info on the game would leak out somehow and gamers would really be looking forward to it only to have to wait months longer then they thought), time effective, performance effective and more.
It’s just not worth it to those companies to do this when they can churn out a game in less time that would be just as good, if not a little better, without it.
I’ve often thought about the armor issue and how it could be dealt with (looks vs. usefulness). Why not have like a “Morph” armor that lets you choose what design you like and color it accordingly? Of course, it’d have to be the best (or 2nd best) ranked armor in order to pull that off right…
For 2D models, making all the armor sprites and such would be incredibly tedious work. For 3D, I think that has to do more with the engine being used which might make that easier to do. But I’m no expert, so I don’t know much about that.
One game I think of because of this whole conversation is FF:CC on the DS. You could have all sorts of helmet/armor combinations that show up on your character, but it’d kinda look goofy if you didn’t have it matching in a set.
Um… textures are “extras”? You’d prefer walls that are all the same color and look like a Lego piece?
Not really. I’ve seen some very good looking dungeons (Tales of Legendia had some of the best I’ve seen.) I’m just saying, IF I had to sacrifice some graphics somewhere in a game to make the characters look better, then I’d certainly prefer they focused less on the dungeons.
Now compare story quality between FFs V and X-2 to FF games that don’t allow class changes. Can you see how much FF V suffered in those areas to provide the system it had.
Er… quite honestly, I liked both games well enough. Sure, there are better games, but there are also worse ones. I don’t really see that much story loss there.
Not really. I’ve seen some very good looking dungeons (Tales of Legendia had some of the best I’ve seen.) I’m just saying, IF I had to sacrifice some graphics somewhere in a game to make the characters look better, then I’d certainly prefer they focused less on the dungeons.
Making things look good, nowadays, is actually a good deal easier than making a lot of things look decent. Many textures are not specifically designed for each game; they’re re-used, especially among companies that have a variety of games.
I also disagree that story quality suffered due to the extra time spent coding class changes. However, I will argue that graphically, both FF5 and FFX-2 largely consist of images reused from the previous games. Practically all the generic character images in FF5 were taken straight from FF4, and we all know that FFX-2 reused every single model from FFX, even when it made no sense to do so. In other words, the 3D model or sprite team was able to spend so much time on the job classes precisely because they had practically no other work to do for those games.