Syria

The Core RPGC Main Forum
#13

I disagree. It sounds naive but I think it is rooted in reality. I don’t think he’s suggesting anything magical, but rather by implying learning through mistakes he is in fact suggesting that over time mistakes are made and learned from. This is rooted in reality because there are any number of ancient civilizations who prospered and many that didn’t. There was a great deal of trial and error both in technology (like agriculture and metal work) and democratic (varieties of different types of governments everywhere, all being shared and distributed throughout, ultimately being observed by Egypt, Greece and Rome). In a modern perspective see The Articles of the Confederacy, the repeal of such, and the cumulative time spent trying to figure out our nations government and you can see how it’s grounded in reality.

PS guess who went back to school

#14

Civilizations have risen and fallen independently of democracy. Success has largely been dependent on the alignment of the stars in terms of culture, technology, resources and commerce. If your culture is incompatible with democracy, you aren’t going to go very far.

Good luck Sorc! (what in?)

#15

The day the middle east is at peace, is the day it is a smoking crater. It sounds insensitive, but I think the west should stay out and let them solve their own problems. Getting involved will just be another quagmire to drain money and lives. I say we deal with threats against our own people and otherwise leave them to their own devices.

Edit: And yeah, I miss when this place was busy, too. :confused:

#16

. If your culture is incompatible with democracy, you aren’t going to go very far.

The point is that, over time, experiencing democracy will change the public’s attitudes. it just takes a long time and lots of painful mistakes. So, for instance, the Egyptian people elect the Muslim Brotherhood. The Brotherhood screws things up - the average Egyptian experiences pain. They learn that radical Islamic policies suck. In the next election, the people elect a leader who represents better principles.

#17

It is, BTW, reproducible in reality. Look at America’s history. When the American democracy started, only white male property-owners were allowed to vote. Over time, the vote was extended to the propertyless, freed slaves, and eventually women. These changes were all democratically enacted. So we see that

Look just at the changes in culture that have happened from the 1950s till today. these cultural changes were, in part, democratically enacted. So, for instance, the public voted for politicians who opposed segregation laws, who supported women in the workforce, etc.

#18

We’re going in circles and you’re not really addressing anything that I’m saying.

Your blind idealism is impractical and is not taking into consideration many things For example, that some people in Egypt think that the Muslim Brotherhood fucked the pooch doesn’t mean that they learned that the politics of the Muslim Brotherhood was bad. This is a gross oversimplification of the philosophy and socio-cultural-ethnic affiliations that have allowed groups like the MB to grow. There is no evidence that demonstrates that people who used to be aligned with the MB actually think the MB’s ways were wrong and therefore reject their political and religious messages. In fact, the evidence points in the other direction and not only in Egypt but elsewhere. It is much more common for people to develop an identity in relation to these kinds of things and thus for people to behave irrationally when it comes to the political decisions they make. Look at Congress right now.

Additionally, you’re not acknowledging the deep differences between US and other countries in terms of culture, history, resources, technology, external forces. You’re comparing apples and oranges. That the US exists as flawed as it is, is by no means proof that anyone anywhere can reproduce this at any time. The US, just like the empires before it, is the product of its times and unique sets of circumstances. N = 1 is not reproducibility.

Until you have something of substance to add to the points I’ve brought up, I’m not going to reply further. I’m looking for depth, facts and logic, not magical thinking.

#19

Democracy has been successfully implemented in both India and Japan. Both are non-Western cultures, historically even more radically different from the West than Arab or Persian cultures.

Also, cultures change. America, as I pointed out, is an example. This is an important point and directly addresses what you said - since you argued that Mideasterners can’t function in a democracy because of their culture. Yet if their culture can change, then they can potentially, in the future, evolve a culture which can handle democracy.

#20

You’re going to have to work much harder than that. Much much harder.

#21

No kind of cancer can kill RPGC. Sin can fix cancer. We have an out.

#22

I’m really amused sinistral has declined to argue in circles, strikes me as grown up. Or something. Oh and thanks! Communications I guess. I want to work in baseball or radio. For baseball I guess most things will do (its more a who you know kinda thing) but the degree is the fall back. I guess. I’m not very good at these things. Radio would mean primarily politics, which sounds pretty meh.

Id rather talk about the shutdown anyway.

#23

I really hope that works out for you.

Re: the shut down, its the most hilarious display of governmental dysfunction since the RPGC Staff forums. Its an endless gold mine of comedy for Colbert and Stewart.

Its nice someone cares that the spending is out of control and there is a problem. However, it is sad to see our congressmen have the mental capacity of gold fish as they try to fix it.

#24

I think Sin’s approach here is methodologically flawed. I don’t disagree that there’s little substance behind the messianic rhetoric of democracy, or behind the generally accepted dogma that voting is incompatible with oppression and tyranny, but I also don’t think it’s really viable to argue about this on Sin’s terms; as he says, empires are a product of their times and circumstances and, by that very nature, don’t really produce much in the way of reproducible results. As such, one can’t advocate any course of action or otherwise take any stance that isn’t purely negative. In other words, any argument put forth can be rejected on the same basis as Curtis’s was — that this is a unique situation in which any evidence from another time, place, or set of circumstances is inadmissible. I agree that no opinion on the subject can be proved to be the best course of action, but I don’t think that’s a particularly meaningful or productive insight.

#25

I don’t claim the argument I’m proposing is best at defining whether or not to intervene. I agree that my argument was narrowly targeted at the proposal Curtis was putting forward. You need to handle things on a case by case basis to assess what can be reasonably expected from an intervention and that gets very complicated very quickly.

#26

even if a military intervention won’t establish a democracy, I still believe that the people of Syria can learn to live in a democracy. it just takes a long time.

#27

Ah, I got the impression you were speaking more broadly, Sin. In that case, I agree, there’s a widespread and baseless assumption that a U.S.-style democracy is the best possible system anywhere in the world could have. I mean “baseless” not in the sense that there aren’t convincing arguments that could be offered, but that those arguments rarely are offered; everyone seems to say democracy is the ideal solution without explaining why.

#28

Kid I like your moxy. Yer alright in my play book.

#29

Any population can learn to live in a democracy. It just takes a little genocide to get the seed conditions right.

#30

Anybody can start up a democracy. Keeping it democratic though, now that’s the trick.

#31

I’m going to do something I’ve never done before and agree with Arac. Democracy is not “inevitable,” and it is not “the only system of government that has worked in the long run.” The post-Republic Roman empire lasted over 500 years. China had various periods of stability of several hundred years under emperors and kings. In contrast, the United States has existed for less than 250 years, and in light of the Civil War, there are arguments it has not even been stable for that long.

With respect to Syria, we have nothing to gain from replacing a ruthless pragmatist like Assad, who at least negotiates based on rational self-interest, with an Islamist zealot, who seeks mainly to destroy his religious and ancestral enemies. Our failed experiment in Egypt made that clear enough.

#32

But is longevity really the best measure to use when rating a society? Seems to me that people fulfill their potential best in democracies - democracies produce the best academic and artistic accomplishments.