Suikoden

It’s pretty obvious who has the True Holy Rune before you even get him, too. Don’t be the guy who doesn’t use him :stuck_out_tongue:

And Sin’s right… you just WONT. You have to break the fight pretty badly to actually win it. You’re not just gonna waltz in and wipe him out. If you actually use Pahn regularly, you’re a lot better off than most people, but still, you need to max out everything he has to really stand a chance, and grind to a few levels higher than you think is enough. Like I said, the fight is rigged to be lost very badly.

SG: If you’ve yet to have any duels, let me explain how this works. Two guys fight and you’ve got three options: Attack, Guard and Special. These three cancel each other in the usual Rock-Paper-Scissors format (Special>Guard>Attack>Special). The guy you’re fighting will say something, from which you’ve got to guess what move he will make and counter with the correct one. It’s like that in every game, there are no tweaks introduced until the fifth.

Teo just hits REALLY FUCKING HARD, so if you miss twice, you’re boned. It’s as simple as that. The actual fight is really easy if you’ve got his responses memorized, but forget about trying to pull it off on your first try without a guide.

And yeah, as a tradition, your experience with the game can be split as “Before and After you get Viki”. She just makes things so much damn faster. Which is why I’m still wondering whose bright fucking idea was to give her to you only in the last goddamn chapter in Suikoden 3.

The fight is only “easy” if you have his responses memorized if you also did what I told you to. It’s a two-pronged approach, and you have to win both prongs. Knowing his moves won’t keep you alive if you’re low leveled and don’t have the highest weapon level you can get, and the best armor. I’m probably making it sound like the hardest fight fucking EVER, which it’s not, but if you slack in any area you’re seriously handicapping yourself. It’s the one thing in the game you actually have to be really prepared for, so… that’s why I’m trying to prepare you :stuck_out_tongue:

And like I said, if he opens with 3 or 4 normal attacks, even if you do everything right, you lose. Your hp will run out before his does, even if you’re nailing him with desperate attacks every time.

Hades, alright I get the point :stuck_out_tongue: I must say though, I’m very prepared in the armor and upgrades department. I got retardedly lucky at the dice game, and the guy rolled 1-2-3 like five or six times in a row, netting me the maximum amount of money.

This, however, brings up another thing worth griping about. I got incredibly lucky getting all that money. So, naturally, I took all that money and I outfitted my entire party with the best available gear and upgraded their weapons to the max I can upgrade them to at this point (I think level 12). This cost about 2/3 of my money. 2/3 of the maximum amount of money you can hold, and if I had to guess, I’m at MOST halfway through the game (I just finished the story arc with the dainty poison flower general). The idea that it’s gonna get worse from there is crazy - how can they ask you for so much money for everything?

SE, yes I’ve done a duel. I get how they work.

Some other things:

  1. I’m not sure why people are mentioning “oh just use teleport”, because I mentioned that in like my second post. I take advantage of it a lot, but I think it’s stupid that you have to warp back to the castle every time, and then remember which town you have to go to when they all look like the same name (Antei or Teion? Kaku, Seika, Kouan, or Garan?)

  2. I have the holy rune on Flik, and I thought about giving him the True Holy Rune, but I’m too lazy, and I just don’t wanna use the guy who has it. Speaking of which, that’s ALSO stupid - why don’t they just allow me to run and call it a day? Why do I have to sacrifice using a Rune with someone?

I’m playing this game through to the end, but I can already tell you I don’t think anything will change my mind. There’s just an awful lot not to like about this game - even disregarding the recruiting 108 characters.

EDIT: So, apparently, I was RIGHT at the part we’ve been discussing. I beat it on my second try. No grinding or anything - Pahn was at level 30. I probably would have beaten it on the first try, but he came in with only 75% life. The best thing to do is just defend him to death. You can learn quickly learn what his lines predict when defending, and then react accordingly. I would have been fine without knowing about it beforehand, I think.

The dice thing wasn’t your luck, it was the characters’. The luck stat actually influences the results in Chinchororin, and Gaspar is the butt of many a joke regarding the fact that the poor fucker more or less single-handedly finances the whole of Tir’s campaign gamplay-wise. You are never going to be needing cash in this game.

I never even played dice. The game has a low max, but the monsters at endgame give you obscene amounts of money anyway.

SG, you were using him all game. With most people, I assume they didn’t. Your setup sounds exactly the same as mine, and I considered what I did with Pahn to be grinding :stuck_out_tongue: Either way, if you got away with defending him to death, I still say there was a bit of luck involved. What was your final HP at?

And make sure you read what I said a few posts up about another missable character. He’s very easy to permanently lose.

Well, I suppose. I TRIED to use him all game, but I had to boot him from my party a lot of times, so he still wasn’t as leveled up as he could have been if I favored him over other characters I liked (Victor, Gremio, Cleo). Still, I have not done ANY needless fighting up to this point - not even to get that unappraisable urn which sort of fell into my lap on accident :stuck_out_tongue:

In the end, I think I had a little less than half life left. When I lost the first time, my opponent had like 5% life remaining. His max HP is 403.

Defending him to death is the easiest thing to do. If you defend and he defends, nothing happens (obviously :P). If he tells you that he’s going to do a Desperate attack, just keep defending and you evade and counter. The only time I ever had to stop defending was when he told me he was going to do a normal attack, and then you just do a desperate attack, which does more than his normal attack. Considering how many more times you’ll get to attack him when you do this, it’s very easy to stay alive.

Edit: Hades, are you sure you’re warning me about the right missable character? I looked up how to recruit the character because I just met them, and it was like “Talk to him, talk to Mathiu, talk to him again after your castle is fully built.” What’s so missable about it?

Oh, so when you said you defended him to death, what you really meant is that you used the normal strategy, but wasted turns defending when you could’ve attacked with no consequence. Okay :stuck_out_tongue:

I think in a bit you’ll be nearing the end. You really should play #2, I think. It was the one that got me hooked, and I mostly played #1 because I felt like I had to after the second. I think it’s a good game, for sure, but it’s not #2.

And I agree with you about the speed thing. I’m not Mister Street Fighter 2 over here, so maybe I don’t need the same pace you do to stay interested, but I can see how you’d think the game is slow. There was a lot they could’ve done to make it more convenient.

Well, sure, there were times I could have attacked with no consequence, but it was easier to just continuously defend, because then I didn’t have to memorize lines for “what does he say after I do a normal attack” or “what does he say after I do a desperation attack?” Instead, I only had to know three different sentences. I suppose if you already know them, that’s one thing, but for someone who’s just playing it for the first time, that’s a way to minimize any unnecessary risks.

And trust me, I’ll be playing Suikoden 2. I just wanted to play this one first…maybe I shouldn’t have :stuck_out_tongue: In any case, I might not play Suiko 2 until May or so. It’s crunch time and it’s my last semester of college, so I really shouldn’t be playing RPGs anyways :stuck_out_tongue:

EDIT: Well, I don’t expect a game to be super speedy all the time, but I just don’t get all the unnecessary steps. If you want to add a teleport function, let me teleport directly to a town, instead of having to teleport somewhere else first. If you’re going to use a system where you can give items in a character’s hand to another character, it seems stupid that the only way you can get items from a character that isn’t in your part is to force them to drop all their items into storage before picking them all out. Doing almost everything in this game is bogged down with unnecessary steps that just make things feel like they’re taking forever.

Suikoden 1 is not that long. I can get all 108 stars and finish the game in around 15 hours.

Well, the teleporting I can kind of understand… the mirror only takes you to where another mirror is, and only Vicki could warp you places. I think it was more of a plot consistency thing than a we-want-to-make-things-needlessly-hard thing. It wasn’t THAT bad, and I hope something stupid like that didn’t ruin the game for you :stuck_out_tongue:

The items thing is annoying, but it’s not like you have to do it all that often, is it? I think Suikoden II fixed this problem anyway.

Well, of course the teleporting thing didn’t singlehandedly ruin the game for me :stuck_out_tongue: But yes, the many little annoyances add up.

And the items thing, I admit, happens less often now. It happened way more often earlier in the game when, every time you visited a new town, you had someone force themselves into your party, making you eject somebody and go back to get all his shit (this very conveniently stopped happening at about the same point that you get to start teleporting, lol).

Double Post: I finished the game. I’ll write my review later tonight maybe, and paste it into this post; but, I guess it’s not like you guys need to read it. :stuck_out_tongue: I’m holding off on Suikoden 2 until the semester is over, unless someone tells me that it’s somewhere in the realm of 15-25 hours.

EDIT: Review’s up.

After my first encounter with the Suikoden series - Suikoden 3 - I was disappointed because I remember enjoying many things about the game, but the combat eventually led me to put down the game forever. I was told later that the first two games were undoubtedly the best. So, a little over five years after my experience with Suikoden 3, I finally got my grubby hands on the first one and tried it. My verdict: People put on the thick nostalgia glasses when they talk about this game, or they completely ignore small problems, no matter how many of them exist. That’s the only reason I can imagine that it’s so lauded.

That’s not to say that there’s NOTHING good about the game. In fact, there’s quite a bit to be liked, and I can sum it up in one word: Style. Suikoden has quite a lot of it, and you notice it right from the outset. The game is a typical JRPG in the way it’s played, but the non-deformed characters, designs that don’t look so much like anime drawings, and the semi-feudal Chinese setting and musical style all lend to that right from the beginning. Incidentally, I heard that the game was loosely based on a historically significant Chinese novel called Shui Hu Zhuan (It has been translated in English to many different names, so I don’t know exactly which one is accurate), so that would explain that.

Even the combat is not so bad, if a bit simple. Suikoden’s combat is that of a tradition turn-based RPG with attacks, magic, and items. The battlefields are in 3D, while the characters and enemies are in 2D, allowing for a bit of zooming in and out with the camera. Magic is done by equipping Runes (each character can only equip one), which allows them to use a certain set of spells, physical attack techniques, or gives them other innate abilities like gaining twice the amount of experience points or the ability to run while exploring towns and dungeons. There are also “Unite” attacks, which are basically combination attacks. These aren’t learned, but are instead innately available to specific sets of characters, so I didn’t find that many. One of the big gimmicks of Suikoden is that there are 108 recruitable characters; this might make the game sound like a grindfest, but characters who are behind in experience catch up very, very fast, making it possible to start using a character at the end of the game, even if they’re still at level 1!

The only gripes I have about combat are negligible. The worst one is that it’s really easy. Granted, there’s not much to the combat, so it’s kind of expected; but, you really don’t even need magic to beat the game, nor do you really need that many attack Runes or anything. A simple “fight and heal” strategy will work on every enemy right up to the end of the game, which is a bit underwhelming. Other than that, you have the option at the beginning of each turn to either run away or bribe the enemy to leave. The problem with these is that there’s no “Yes/No” confirmation when you select these (while there IS a Yes/No confirmation for attacking), so if you pick one of those two options on accident, it commits you to them. It sucks to bribe an enemy on accident and lose a lot of money.

As you can see, Suikoden has the makings of a good game. It’s got a unique aesthetic, simple fast-paced combat, and a story that perfects an old storyline instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, like other RPGs try - and fail - to do. So, what’s the big deal?

Gameplay. Beyond combat, every other aspect of Suikoden’s gameplay is horrendous. Suikoden, in my opinion, should serve as a textbook example to any aspiring RPG developer: Your game is not assured to be fun just because the combat doesn’t suck. Quite the contrary, in my opinion; I’ve played a lot of games with bland, standard combat that turn out to be a lot of fun. This is because, no matter how much combat sucks, the only dealbreakers for combat are combat that’s too slow or absurdly hard. Still, even the most uninspired battle systems of RPGs are at least to the point. It’s very easy, however, to make other aspects of an RPG’s gameplay be SUCH a total drag, which is what Suikoden does.

The worst aspect of the gameplay is that it basically ensures that every last thing takes as long as possible to do. For example, there’s a way to teleport to any location you’ve visited before, but you can only use this feature if you’re at the good guys’ base. So, you need to use an item (unlimited uses, thank God) that takes you back to the base, so that you can THEN teleport to your next location. Why do that? Just cut out the middle man! I’ll teleport back to the base if I FEEL like going back to the base!

Also, in Suikoden, there is no item bag; characters carry their inventory and have limited space for it. This isn’t bad, but consider the fact that there’s 108 recruitable characters in the game - you’re bound to remove a few from your party (almost certainly, since there are several times throughout the game when characters force their way into your party). When a character is in your party, you can hand individual items of theirs over to another party member. BUT! If they’re NOT in the party? You have to go to the item vault in the good guys’ base, have them drop off ALL their items into the vault, and then manually pick out any items you want. …Why!? The game obviously has been programmed in such a way that handing over individual items is possible, so why not let you do it with ALL of your characters, instead of just the six (out of one-hundred and eight, mind you) that you’re currently using?

And money, good grief. You have to buy a lot of equipment in Suikoden, mainly thanks to the aforementioned ‘having to use characters you don’t want to use’ aspect. Even if you go through the hassle of transfering armor from characters you remove from your party, you can’t switch weapons; each character has their own individual weapon that has to be upgraded, so you’re forced to spend money on any character you use anyhow. This wouldn’t be so annoying, if it weren’t for the fact that buying armor and upgrading weapons costs a TON of money! True story: I was about halfway through the game, and I got super lucky on a dice-rolling mini game that allowed me to get the maximum amount of money that can be carried. After equipping my current party with the best available armor, and upgrading their weapons to be as strong as they could be at the time, I had spent almost ALL of my money.

Let that sink in for a minute: I had the MOST amount of money you could possibly have, and I spent almost ALL of it equipping only SIX characters with the best stuff, only HALF of the way through the game. At the very least, the enemies near the very end of the game drop tons of money, mitigating this somewhat. However, you can expect to do a lot of grinding if you aren’t as patient as I am at playing the dice game (and reloading my save if I lose a lot of money).

This doesn’t even scratch the surface of other minor annoyances. Characters frequently force themselves into your party, and sometimes for frustratingly small amounts of time. If you only needed to accompany me ten steps, why didn’t you just officially join my party AFTER taking the ten steps? That way, I wouldn’t have to make me go all the way back to the base to get my preferred characters back! Why do I have to recruit a specific party member just to have a map? I didn’t find this character until over halfway through the game, and it would have been nice to have earlier; not only does navigating the world map feel claustrophobic, but also, you’re almost never given instructions on how to reach your next destination. For that matter, why do so many of the 108 characters have really obscure methods of recruitment? Who would think to go back to a dungeon you’ve finished a long time ago on the off chance that a recruitable character might be waiting at the very end? The sad thing is, that’s not even the worst example I could come up with!

You could try and make the point that such faults were typical of games back in this era, but I don’t buy that excuse for most of these faults. Lufia and Breath of Fire were already released by this time, and THOSE games allowed you to teleport to any town you wanted to. Final Fantasy 5 and 6 were released at the time, and you didn’t have to recruit a random character just to have access to a MAP. Many good games at this time were doing away with the need to grind endlessly for money.

You could also try to make the point that not any one of these things can singlehandedly ruin the fun of the game. However, that’s exactly why I went into painstaking detail to mention almost every annoying aspect I could think of. None of these problems are too bad on their own; but, when you have six or seven small problems stacked on top of each other - almost all of which are ubiquitous during gameplay - it drags the experience through the dirt. No matter how short a game is (I clocked in at about 18 hours), small annoyances in large number can make any game feel like eternity…in a bad way.

You know the expression, “Don’t sweat the small stuff?” Personally, I’ve always thought that expression was horseshit. If you even began to ‘sweat it’, as it were, it’s because the ‘stuff’ in question warrants some kind of attention, and you undertand that at an instinctual level. If you teach yourself to just laugh these things off, they’ll come back to haunt you eventually. That adequately explains what Suikoden feels like to me: A game that paid the price for ignoring the small things.

It’s beatable in 20. In fact, I think you get a special ending for doing that. If you want to play it thoroughly, you’ll spend more than 25 on it.

That’s the Clive plotline for beating it fast, isn’t it? It ends in Sajah, which is the last normal town, but if you wanna do that it’d be very tough to get all 108 stars and do other stuff as well.

He could probably work the missables into the speed run, and get the rest later. Speed runs are something that’s best done after a normal run, though.

The Clive subplot’s nice, but forget about trying to pull it off from the beginning. Even knowing exactly how to do it, I had to rely on the Game Over and Matilda Gate “glitch” to pull it off comfortably and still get all 108, it kind of ruins the game since you’re speeding through everything. Honestly, I thought that was a stupid design decision.

Can you rely on a clock reset like in FFIX to get everything and still be able to conclude the subplot?

SE: It’s still better than FFIX’s Excalibur II. And SG is a pretty hardcore gamer, much moreso than most people here. He could find a way to do it, if he wanted to. But yeah it would probably ruin the game.

Yeah, but that one I really didn’t give shit about. It’s a pointless bragging-rights item versus one of the joined-for-no-good-reason stars actually getting a whole suplot giving him background.