Stop procreating! Our children will never respect us

[Arac]

Nothing you just listed is unique to Neuromancer, even before the Matrix. Zion is a judeo-christian term referring to Jerusalem (I think), and it’s no surprise that they used it in a movie that parallels christianity to represent the only surviving city of humans.

Leather and sunglasses? Are you shitting me? You think Neuromancer INVENTED that? Let’s get back down to earth here, junior.

Indeed, none of that is unique to just Neuromancer, however, if you can find me other things that have all of those things. Indeed, Zion could have something else named for it, as it isn’t created by William Gibson, certainly. Of course, neither is the attire of Trinity, however, let’s compare a little further. Trinity is an excellent fighter who happens to dress exactly like Molly from Neuromancer, also an excellent fighter. Two female, secondary characters with the same patterns of attire and omnipresent mirror-like sunglasses. This is getting a little common. Now let’s add that to both works having Zion. How common a coincidence is this now? Less so. Now, add in all the other little ‘coincidences’ the two Cyberpunk tales share, and tell me just how likely it is that these were completely unrelated.

I don’t know who the fuck Hideo is, but I thought the fighting abilities of the agents were a little too close to GOKU’S for the Matrix not to be ripping off Dragonball Z. What do you think?

Only your way is not even remotely plausible, because the Matrix lacks dragonballs, other character parallels, or locational similarities, and Dragonball Z lacks any cyberpunk trappings beyond a few androids, again shares no characters with the Matrix, shares few themes with it, shares no place names, does not contain a similar technological future, and does not have even remotely similar style. Finally, Goku is a protagonist, while the agents are antagonists. Goku is human and emotional, whereas Hideo and the agents are more cold, weapons more than people.

I mean, you can scoff at little details as coincidences, but your argument is akin to looking at a song plagarism case and saying ‘of course both songs have a G chord in them, that’s no big deal’ and ignoring the fact that all the other chords are also the same. Sure, two stories can have a city named Zion and not be the same. Sure, two stories can have distressingly similar characters and not be the same. Sure, two stories can very similar themes and not be rip-offs. Of course, two stories can be similar in setting without ripping each other off. Two stories easily can present a similar idea of something in the future without being rip-offs. Two stories can be analogies for a Christian apocalypse without being lifts from the other. However, I think when the same two stories do all of those things, it’s pretty blatant a lift.

[Hades_Vulvuhzela]

I mean, you can scoff at little details as coincidences, but your argument is akin to looking at a song plagarism case and saying ‘of course both songs have a G chord in them, that’s no big deal’ and ignoring the fact that all the other chords are also the same. Sure, two stories can have a city named Zion and not be the same. Sure, two stories can have distressingly similar characters and not be the same. Sure, two stories can very similar themes and not be rip-offs. Of course, two stories can be similar in setting without ripping each other off. Two stories easily can present a similar idea of something in the future without being rip-offs. Two stories can be analogies for a Christian apocalypse without being lifts from the other. However, I think when the same two stories do all of those things, it’s pretty blatant a lift.
If two stories did everything you listed and only everything you listed, they’d be lifts. The thing is, the Matrix does a lot more than what you listed. It didn’t take Neuromancer or GITS and retell them with real people, and though GITS was an influence, Neuromancer was not. It wrote a new story that used elements from them, in Neuromancer’s case, unintentionally. It also used elements from old greek mythology and philosophy (Morpheus, Allegory of the Cave), The Bible (Nebuchadnezzar, Jesus), other philosophers (Descartes, Jean Baudrillard), Buddhism (boy with the spoon), Alice in Wonderland (“Follow the white rabbit”), and other things I can’t name off the top of my head, all in an original story that was enhanced by other works but ripped off none of them.

There’s also one other thing. The Matrix is better at what it does than GITS, and probably Neuromancer considering it’s relative lack of depth, unpopularity, lack of visuals, and lack of insight about the relationship between religion and philosophy in the real world.

Plus, it’s “hip.”

[Arac]

If I don’t say the Ramones are an influence, and go out and sing “I want to be Sedated” as my own song, it is obviously an entirely different song from “I wanna be Sedated,” and any material theft is unintentional, right? As long as I don’t admit it being an influence, a nearly direct lift of it is unintentional?
Seriously, the Matrix is pretty obvious about it. I honestly do not understand how you aren’t seeing it, other than sheer power of denial or utter ignorance. The fact that the Matrix had other things doesn’t make it much less of a lift. I mean, if I add a verse to a cover of a song, it does not make it a new song that isn’t a lift from the other one. The sheer volume of material lifted out of Neuromancer is alarming, given that is the majority percent of what is important about the film. If you look, you could argue most of the allegories you mentioned are present in Neuromancer, as well, meaning those connections, even, were lifted. Even if not, adding an Alice in Wonderland reference to “I wanna be Sedated” wouldn’t make it any less of a rip-off.
Finally, you have not read Neuromancer, you cannot even really argue this point. Nor can you argue Neuromancer’s lack of depth or anything else, considering you have not even read it. You are making an argument without literally half of the information upon which it is based. You are making an almost completely uninformed argument, with two pieces of deeply flawed logic as your only arguments:

1. If someone does not name something as an influence, it is obvious they did not intentionally steal any ideas from it, because they would of course admit to such a thing.
2. If any material is added to an older work, or minute details are changed, it is no longer a rip-off, and is, in fact, an original work.

Not to mention the fact that those two flimsy bits of reasoning popped out of thin air after your previous defense of “This individual similarity is a coincidence. So is this one. And this one, and this one. It is obvious that this is not a lift,” completely fell apart.
I’m done with this. You are arguing from a position of stubborn ignorance, having only half the pertinant information, (arguably less since knowledge of both works and the comparison between them is required, and you have knowledge of only one work, not the other, and thus not the comparison) and flawed logic, and you obviously aren’t going to come out of it anytime soon.

[Trillian]

…buh? o_o

This is assuming they would respect us in the first place?

[natural_borne_killer]

I’ve never been a fan of the Matrix movies, myself. The first one is cool the first time you see it, but every time I’ve tried to watch it again, it numbs my mind. And the other movies are just mind numbing, period. Flashy effects and desperate attempts at looking cool can only take you so far.

And don’t even get me started on Enter the Matrix. shivers

[Rigmarole]

…buh? o_o

This is assuming they would respect us in the first place?

You kids and your zany antics, get of my lawn!

Who said they’d respect us otherwise?

[Yar_Kramer]

I’ve been in the process of downloading a torrent called “The Matrix: DeZionized” which attempts to remove the extraneous bits out of the Matrix sequels, i.e. Zion and every single reference to it, shortening the Burly Brawl and, uh, everything in Revolutions … all in all, compressing both movies combined to 143 minutes.

[Curtis]

I love the Matrix :kissy:

[Rigmarole]

You can have its kids. And then they’ll never respect you.

[Genericangstyposter]

I’ve read Neuromancer, and I’d have to agree that The Matrix almost completely ripped it off. Of course, George Lucas ripped off old samurai movies with his Star Wars trilogy, and I enjoy them quite a bit (the GOOD ones, that is :-P). Make of that what you will.

[Alyx]

I liked the matrix when it wasn’t such a wide spread cult thing as it seems to be now O.o

i just liked it because it was nice and different from other movies coming out at the time…and then I watched the sequel and cried. I still haven’t watched the third movie.+

[Seifer]

…procreating … blah,blah … Matrix

Your opinion is garbage

Garbage? Maybe, but it could be a prophecy (warning?) in disguise.
Governor Mitt Romney, a potential contender in the 2008 presidential election:

“…creating human life… blah,blah,blah … the Matrix”

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/breaking_news/2006/08/romney_blasts_s.html

Oh, the link has almost nothing that pertains to this thread (save a few keywords), but procreation without sexual intercourse might become the dominant form of human breeding. So don’t listen to Cassandra, enjoy it while you still can – make your offsprings the old fashioned way

---

RE: Neuromancer @ Ghost in the shell vs. the Matrix verbal duel, according to Joel Silver the Wachowski brothers first described their intentions for The Matrix by showing him GITS and saying, “We wanna do that for real”.

My take on this - if Neuromancer @ GITS were Xenogears, then Matrix would be Xenosaga

[Rigmarole]

rests in the mantle of unshakable truth

[Yar_Kramer]

I, for one, welcome our new machine overlords.