So I’m watching some old replays of Terrans and see that some people prefer to build a Barrack, a few marines, and then launch it towards the enemy base.
…why? It just… hovers there. Does nothing else, doesn’t even get ATTACKED. I really don’t get it.
Reason being I finally got hold of SC and BW and have been wanting to do some online matches and decided to look at how the peeps in Korea throw down. Just never understood the whole Barracks thing. Even when a Terran vs. Terran match mimicked eachother like that.
Scouting. The vast majority of pro Terran players prefer to go metal very, very quickly (mostly because marines are too fragile and vulture are such a short tech hop away), and the few Marines are really just to prevent a rush and some early harassment. Barracks become an obsolete building by the 5th minute or so. The opponent doesn’t bother to kill the 1500-HP hovering distraction because it’s a waste of time.
This is what the most generic early build orders look like:
T: Barracks -> Factory -> (Academy/Bay/Armoury) -> Factory -> Factory -> Factory
P: Gateway -> Core -> Gateway -> Facility -> Observatory -> Gateway -> Gateway
Z: Pool -> Hatch -> Lair -> Spire (Mutas) -> Hatch -> Hatch
Z: Pool -> Hatch -> Den -> Lair (Lurkers) -> Hatch -> Hatch
Lurkers are fine and all, but when I build a den, I usually have something else on my mind. Something much cheaper, more powerful, and more versatile that you don’t have to sacrifice your entire early economy and defense for. They’re called hydras and I’ve never seen a zerg win without them. Lurkers are not a legitimate early game build and they’re generally a huge waste of money in the mid-late game when you could just build more hydras and cracklings for less money.
I also don’t think I’ve EVER seen anyone better than me use Mutas. I don’t know why, since they’re relatively cheap, easy to spam, and almost impossible to deal with if you’re not a stormer or you don’t have fully upgraded valks. Though in a pro game, the fact that you’d even consider building valks probably means you’ve already lost. Same for corsairs.
IMO the generic early zerg build order is more like:
2nd Hatch + Pool + Extractor (simultaneously) -> Den -> 3rd Hatch etc. with some evo chambers not far behind and then lair. The 2nd hatch should always be at your base’s natural expansion on maps like LT. Build units as they become available and don’t stop popping out drones until you have at least 20-30.
Okay, so maybe that’s not so generic. But it’ll get you less killed than lurker or muta rushing.
I prefer 8 player multiplayer free for alls… and nuking the hell out of everybody (even my fiancee). Nuking in defense, offense and for fun!
Ohkay, now the Barracks thing makes more sense, thanks.
That’s a good order for a nice calm game, Hades, but the majority of pro replays I’ve seen always go for either Mutas or Lurkers. Hydras are nice to have but they have poor harassment abilities, whereas the other two do, and pros <i>always</i> harass early-game when their high APM can count for something that puts them at a slight advantage. Also I never see pros build evolution chambers till at least mid-game.
Then again, none of us are pro. You can play like this when your APM is >300, so just work on being able to produce staple units quickly for now. Pro videos are not really good sources to learn from unless you already can consistently pull ~150 APM.
Yeah the Evo chambers should come after lair come to think of it, and that is getting into mid game.
APM is a retarded way to evaluate players. I shouldn’t have to say that.
I’ve never seen a pro replay with mutas. I’ve seen them with lurkers but never before lings and hydras, and not just because you need hydras to morph into them. Lurker rushing WILL get you killed by a competent player. Zerg have a hard time when they DON’T waste horrendous amounts of gas rushing to units that are fairly useless if you don’t have your staples covered.
And you’re right that none of us are pros, but some of us aren’t far from it. You know I know my SC and I know you know yours. And we both know that at high levels of play, leaving yourself vulnerable enough for long enough to get lurkers in the early game is a ticket to fucked-ville. Come on Cless You know the zerg harassment unit is lings.
PS Where do you get your replays? I feel like watching some good games now
I’ve seen pros use mutalisks and I DESTROY people with my use of lurkers. DESTROY.
I know, and I love watching you do it. My points was that it’s hard to pull off in a pro level match without getting destroyed yourself.
I want to see a replay of a pro going muts, because I love them. Do you have any?
Uhh I’m pretty sure none of us are “not far” from being pro I’ve played and observed a few people who’ve made it into WCG tournaments and they’re already a lot better.
P.S. You don’t need gas for lings so it’s not really that hard to go for Lurkers directly. I never said Lurker <i>rushing</i>; you just don’t necessarily need hydras in between.
P.P.S. I get my replays from a club I’m helping organize; they find it on WCG sites or Team Liquid or various Korean TV dumps.
My definition of not far is probably a little more lenient than yours. We’re a lot closer to being pro than we are to being complete amateurs. That doesn’t mean we’ll be winning any tournaments any time soon, but we do know what we’re doing and I don’t think we’re all that far from being able to take on a lesser pro player on a good day. Besides, you don’t have to be pro to understand what the pros are doing and how the game works. And the game works in such a way that you better have those lings out asap, lurkers or not. And you better have those hydras out at some point, lurkers or not. Or you won’t last very long against any competent players.
When you described your build orders you had lurkers and mutas in parentheses without mentioning anything before them. That was misleading.
In that case, yeah, we’re not noob
The “build orders” I wrote down were just general ideas of the direction of the build. They’re by no means complete; otherwise I would have included Extractor somewhere in there
I thought Hades only liked playing computers…
I only like playing comps when I’m with YOU Ramza
Back in the days of SG, Kagon, Jiharn, Cless… I’d pvp all the time, usually on Dark Continent, Duel, or Ursadon. I wasn’t as good back then but I made it work. I remember one game, it was me and Kagon vs like 3 or 4 others. I thought we’d lose for sure but we actually ended up trouncing them pretty hard. I miss Kagon, he and I made a pretty good pair back then.
And then there were the days of Sin, Zero, Rast, Bahamut, Hiei, OnionKid… ohhhhh man I don’t think I’ve ever been worse at anything than I was at SC back then.
I remember when I would never attack Vorpy because I thought that it would take at least 3 people attacking simultaneously to demolish his Terran city-fortress And I could always count on SG making hydras, so I always made High Templar to spare
Man, you were probably right about Vorpy, too
Man, do you remember a game where you nuked like 24 of my guardians? Or was that SG who did that? That made me so mad Because nukes are so easy to dodge, and I just didn’t know it was coming lol
We should get some games going sometime!
Guardians are easy to nuke when the nuke dot is under them
Yeah we should toly get games going. Let’s Hamachi it up!
That was me, Hades. I remember, that was the first time I ever bested you at SC, and we didn’t get along back then, so you were SOOOOOOOOOOO especially mad, lmao. Oh well. Those were the days, huh?
Yeah, the days when I CRIED you bastard