Time to watch Bowling for Columbine again.
Wow, glad you got out alive on that one there dave. My dad use to work at a homeless shelter, and he was like the counselor, and he was the one who signed their working permits, drivers liceanse papers, etc. So my dad would constantely get drunks guys who would pull a knife or gun, and like every time, they didnt kill him, because my dad was like batman or somthing, he like freaked them out about it, and they dropped the weapon and ran. I saw this happen, so this is no bologna. Ya, kinda off your story, but i think It would suck to have a gun pulled on ya.
Well the point I was trying to make is Infonicks suggestions might be plausible if your a TRAINED MARINE, but for the average joe trying to disarm someone is normally not the most advisable course of action unless its your only option.
It isn’t brainwashing. Believe it or not, the stuff I just said isn’t standard protocol. In fact, it is just stuff you learn from guys when you’re bored and standing around. Hell, I’ve learned a lot of personal ways of defending myself, not from training, but just being bored with some of my Marine friends and them showing me.
Actually, what I was saying about fighting or running and why was based on common sense and stuff I learned from a jujitsu instructor when I was a little kid. What I was saying about disarming a weapon is stuff that I said requires some practice and even I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing it right now. The fighting I was talking about is like kicking the person with the gun in the balls when he isn’t looking and trying to just get the gun away or stunning him with that sort of move and running away. Hell, I aciddentally hit a friend of mine in the balls hard one time (we were just wresting around) and saw how hitting the balls affects a guy (plus I’ve been hit there hard before know it’ll take the wind out of you). I’m not talking about fancy martial arts stuff. I’m talking about huitting the guy whatever way you can to get enough time to try and run. Disarming is for if you know what to do, but I was mostly just pointing out some easily explainable ways of doing it (such as pushing on the barrel to keep it from firing). Also, I’m saying that this sort of stuff is a last result where the guy is gonna is no shit gonna shoot you.
You want to keep the situation as low in intensity as possible. Such as the friend’s comment escalated the intensity, but they didn’t raise it enough to cause a no shit they’re gonna kill you situation. That is also why you don’t just run, because it’ll raise the intensity and make them want to shoot you more. The way it ended was best since it kept them from fighting and a single shot being fired. Also, I said it was a fucked up situation where if they fought or ran neither running or fighting was really advisable. If I was all about fighting, I would have said some stuff about how to fight someone with a knife, but no, I said it is best to run from a knife (hell I know I would).
My main thing was just that I didn’t want people to think that running from someone with a gun is the best option as Kraken had said. I was mostly pointing out that running isn’t the best reason for the reasons I stated earilier.
I guess running from a gun comes down to if he would shoot you if you ran away.
I can understand if it comes down to fighting for your life against an armed person intent on harming you, that kicking someone in the balls or jamming your thumb in their eye socket for that matter are all reasonable suggestions. I think I misunderstood your previous post. I took it more as you saying no matter what the situation is trying to disarm someone is the best solution, which apparently isnt exactly what you meant.
However I’d say unless your within very close range of the person with a gun, running isnt always a bad option. Even skilled marksmen have trouble hitting a moving target, and for an unskilled person hitting a moving target from say 15 yards is pretty difficult to do espcially if your running in a crooked line.
Alcohol + Testosterone + Adrenaline can create that dangerous situation. And that’s why I think people should not go around armed, specially at bars. It’s a good thing that you got out of tht situation unharmed, but it was a big risk of death there ED.
I hate pricks who go around with guns as if they had any right to do so. A gun is not a toy, and it’s time those gangsta wannabes realized that.
Dorchester is mad gangsta. I can go there anytime I want though, because I have mad props.
Jesus, man. That’s some fucked shit. Glad you’re okay, mate.
You’re very right about attacking, if the person you’re facing can actually shoot. Not every shooter is a good shot or even armed with a quality weapon, so I wouln’t consider it efficient for me, as a civilian, to learn how to dismantle a specific handgun while it’s still in my assailant’s hands.
Also, if you look at the analysis of the Uniform Crime Report, you can see that most shootings do happen at close range. So, considering the statistics, if you have that seven feet on him already, hauling ass presents itself as common sense. So does not running away in a straight line and using cover to your advantage. You don’t have to outrun the bullet, just the triggerman. And if he’s drunk and/or angry but still trying to aim, this is even easier.
What you say about getting in one or two quick, well placed hits to make running easier on you/harder on them is also true.
You say you wouldn’t want to try those disarming/neutralizing techniques without a lot of practice. You have the special advantage of having time to practice them. You also have plenty of general training in combat, and are better prepared to fight psychologically than I will ever be. I have no doubt that you’d make me eat my balls in a stand-up fight.
However, the methods taught to you as a soldier aren’t all viable to me as a civilian. We train for different situations and are held to different standards under the law. I can’t afford to spend too much time learning to defend against a specific type of attack from a specific type of weapon; I need a quick-to-learn, generally effective set of measures I can take to keep me safe in the most common situations. Most of the ones I know come in the form of conflict avoidance and de-escalation techniques with a few punches, kicks, takedowns, and an understanding of the mechanics involved thrown in.
Now the situation that they were in, fighting wasn’t really an option since it was 2 of them vs. 3. Running wasn’t much of an option either for the same reason. If anything, fighting would be better though since it could create some commotion and maybe get some people to break-up the situation.
That’s true, but the ideal would be that if something happens, it happens in the bar where there are witnesses and perhaps help available. Unfortunately, Evil_Dave and his pal didn’t read whatever signs were there that something was brewing, and even if they did (assuming the signs were there) they didn’t have recourse to recruit a bouncer or bartender to cover their escape or call the cops. I’m also sort of leery of relying on the kindness of strangers, especially when they have to be kind enough to confront an armed thug.
Also, it wouldn’t be hard for them follow and run. I mean, unless you run a lot and have more stamina than most people, running wouldn’t get you far. The reason you run from a knife is because the knife will help the person a lot in a fight, but the person most likely won’t be able to throw it at you with much success and even if they did hit you, it probably wouldn’t cause as much damage as a gunshot wound.
That’s true. Another reason is that the effective range of a knife is from about three and a half feet on in. And grappling with a knifer is suicide for all but the hardest asses. So running is obviously best there. A gun has an effective range, too, that starts at the muzzle and peters out at distance depending on how good a hand it rests in and how good a head that hand is attached to.
As far as being chased, if you choose to boogie, you look for things to throw into your pursuer’s path and other nuisances. Where you go is of course important too. If you can get even one of them to kiss the pavement, the likelihood that <b>all</b> the others will keep following you is small. Think of it as working, in theory, like an AP mine or fragmentation grenade; wounding one enemy takes two or three effectively out of action. It’s iffy, but everything is where violence is concerned. I’m sure you appreciate that at least. Being reasonably fit and having a decent 100 yard dash under your belt should be adequate when you throw a monkeywrench in the toolbox with them.
I personally think that the situation ended the best possible way once the gun was pulled though.
Dave, it’s good to hear that you are ok though.
Heh, seconded. The things I forget to say when I latch on to a moving train of thought…
I’ve been kicked in the balls exactly once, which is far and away fewer than the number of times it’s been tried. I haven’t even been down to the corner, much less around the block, but the first thing I do when I’ve got someone in my face is change my posture to protect my manliness.
Scarier still is that guys who fight a lot build up resistance to that kind of pain (which comes not so much from getting your beans mashed but from getting your spine compressed, though I don’t reccomend malleting your crotch either). Now, not many guys can withstand a headbut AND a ballshot, so it makes sense for your ballshot to bring company, but that’s another thing. In other words, yeah, try it, but don’t bet on it.
I’m talking about huitting the guy whatever way you can to get enough time to try and run.
No argument. I just think this one deserves its own space.
Disarming is for if you know what to do, but I was mostly just pointing out some easily explainable ways of doing it (such as pushing on the barrel to keep it from firing). Also, I’m saying that this sort of stuff is a last result where the guy is gonna is no shit gonna shoot you.
You want to keep the situation as low in intensity as possible. Such as the friend’s comment escalated the intensity, but they didn’t raise it enough to cause a no shit they’re gonna kill you situation. That is also why you don’t just run, because it’ll raise the intensity and make them want to shoot you more.
Yeah, I’ll agree with you on both points there. Running is more contingent on wether the guy’s trying to draw a bead on you, and how far away he is. I’ve outlined my criterion for judging wether to run or not.
The way it ended was best since it kept them from fighting and a single shot being fired. Also, I said it was a fucked up situation where if they fought or ran neither running or fighting was really advisable. If I was all about fighting, I would have said some stuff about how to fight someone with a knife, but no, I said it is best to run from a knife (hell I know I would).
My main thing was just that I didn’t want people to think that running from someone with a gun is the best option as Kraken had said. I was mostly pointing out that running isn’t the best reason for the reasons I stated earilier.
There’s never a guaranteed solution for every situation. In my judgement, from the description Dave gave us, I think that fighting would have been a monumentally bad call, and it seems you agree at least partially.
Running may have provoked them to fire, too, but I couldn’t tell you for sure, other than of course that chasing is a basic instinct. Any way you can slice it; run, fight or talk, it’s even dicier after the weapon is drawn than before because the other guy’s more prepared to attack than you.
Wow, Frame; I haven’t seen a straw man of this magnitude since <i>The Wizard of Oz</i> @_@
I haven’t been in a car accident; does that mean I can’t reccomend that Evil_Dave use a seat belt?
Read our posts again. What me and Info are talking about is when you should rush a guy with a gun. We both agree on the reasons why attacking works as a strategy. I look at the statistics on shootings and draw the conclusion that most people can’t shoot for shit and that if you can avoid conflict with a gunman by running (with precautions like zigzagging and creating obstacles for pursuers) you should. Info, in my opinion, is worried about facing the rarer person who can actually shoot (understandable, as he is a professional and trains to deal with professionals).
Evil_Dave and his friend were able to defuse the situation, as his friend didn’t provoke the aggressors further once he saw they were armed. Like InsignificantItem said (though his debating style needs some work and he made some unfounded assumptions about the military), they didn’t escalate the confrontation further. Hell, Info says so himself in his second post. I said in my first post that it would have been best if he didn’t provoke them in the first place with the, “well why was she looking at me like she wanted my dick?” comment.
I give this thread a thumb’s up for Kraken’s hilarious attempt to be a knowledgeable fighting badass.
Even if he did have a gun you’d get in bigger trouble if you hurt him more than he hurt you. Which sucks.
And even if you have no clue about fighting, no idea whatsoever, you should know that quickly running away is a stupid idea because impulsive actions often trigger more impulsive actions. In other words if some psycho notices you making a sudden movement he’s much more likely to shoot than if you don’t move at all, or in a predicted manner (“We’re gonna go away now”, whatever, he’ll have less reason to shoot you then).
As for “Don’t knock away his gun/ close range fighting if you don’t have a lot of practice”, I think as a last resort you’d still have a chance if the kid’s an amateur like in this case who bought himself a gun but apparently doesn’t have fighting experience. If you’re known to have a lot of bad luck though, you’re gonna run itno info and then you’re in deep shit. 
You can’t compare common sense to something that actually requires knowledge/ experience. Would you also run to a doctor who has years of experience and tell him how to do his surgery cause you once read a book about it and think you know how to do it best?
I laughed out loud when I read this one. Shinobi’s got mad street cred, yo.
You guys make some good points. I feel like it ended the best way possible.
Dude, it was the only bar closeby. I’m not going to sit twiddling my thumbs because I happen to be in a rough neighborhood. For the most part, if you mind your own business, people leave you alone. Obviously, shit like this happens once in a while, but who is to say it wouldn’t happen at some yuppy bar on Lansdown Street? I’m not going to live in fear, and I refuse to be intimidated by some stupid thugs. (Lansdown is a popular street in Boston with many clubs/bars. Right by Fenway Park. Not a rough area.)
As far as myself getting a gun, I’ve decided not to. But honestly, its only because getting a gun legitimately is very expensive and time consuming, and getting one illegitimately is way too risky. I don’t have a record, I don’t need one either.
First let me say that if that kid didn’t pull a piece, we would have fought them. 3 vs 2 are not rediculous odds. I’ve been in worse. And you guys are preaching to the choir as far as nut-kicking and such. I learned a long time ago to fight dirty. Fights are and should be ended as quickly as possible. I have absolutely no qualms with throwing sand in someone’s eyes, punching them in the throat, kicking balls, etc. There is no such thing as a fair fight.
RE: Running from a gun- It depends on the situation. A moving target is harder to hit, but how far can you really move in a fraction of a second? I can’t recommend running or fighting a gun because they can both get you killed.
RE: Running from a knife- Hell yes! Run! I actually had a knife on me at the time. I usually carry one, but more as a tool than for protection. I wouldn’t have pulled it except as a last resort, like if I was on the ground getting choked out. If the kid had pulled a knife instead of a gun, I would have bolted. I am not interested in getting into a knife fight. No one wins those.
I agree that a fight should end as soon as possible, but I don’t think fighting dirty is the best option.
Not fighting is top priority. And if you are caught in one already, fighting dirty may lead to you and the offender risking some really nasty injuries.
My opinion is that if you have to deal with violent people and want to stay clean, go practice martial arts. I speak from experience. It has saved me a lot of trouble a few times, and I never had to cause any injury to anyone.
If any of you guys is interested in knowing about my school: http://www.pakua.org/about.htm
No offense, but martial arts are crap when it comes to a real fight. There are no rules in a street fight, and if you are following rules that some dude taught you, you are only handicapping yourself. Who is to say that the guy you are fighting isn’t going to try to eye-gouge you?
Of course, I don’t seek out fights. Not fighting is the best thing. Blah blah. But if it does come down to a fight, you are trying to injure them. That is the goal. Get in there, cause some damage and get out. The quicker you put your opponant out of commission, the less chance you have of getting hurt yourself.
I don’t want to get into a theorycraft talk. It’s already ridiculous enough with videogames, but when you go theorizing about real life fighting it really goes downhill. I have been into street fights, and that’s why I said I speak from experience.
My goal has never been to injure. I’m not getting into a “it’s you or him” talk either, it’s just not like me. As for me being handicapped, the worst harm I’ve taken was a small cut on the leg. A vaccine against tetanus later and I was fine.
Also, I said that not causing injuries is the ideal, not that you must let yourself be beaten so as not to harm the offender. Avoiding any injuries to myself is more important than the opponent’s wellbeing (that’s one of our rules). I’m glad I’ve never had to cause more than pain to anyone, but I know how to go beyond that, with technical details.
I’ve never even made anyone bleed, and once again I’m glad for that. But I’ve already seen people being permanently crippled more than once, a couple of times even by technicques which I have already learned, which is yet another reason for me to say that avoiding fights should be top priority, and not harming anyone comes second.
One last thing: another thing we learn (and this is not just in my school, any sane person who’s into any style of martial arts lives by this): don’t fight someone with a gun unless you think you would just be shot anyway. You are not faster than bullets, and no matter how skilled you are, there is always the risk of you being shot. It’s way better allowing yourself to be robbed than to go by this risk. We don’t learn martial arts to take such risks and real life is not Holywood.
Nah, I’m not saying you couldn’t win a 2 v 3 fight. I was saying that 2 guys without a gun and one with a gun is a bad situation and you wouldn’t want to fight. I said nothing, about 2 v 3 without a weapon. The odds are against you, but I never said you couldn’t win. It is best to just assume that the guys individually are a srong or stronger than you though, which is why the basic assumption is that it’ll be hard.
Also, that is partly my point, a gun is a fucked up situation no matter what, but the chances are slightly better to fight. Hell, I’m sure you’ve seen it in movies and on TV about military gun fights. The military doesn’t just run if being overpowered, it is a fight and run. Half continue to fight a bit, then the other half runs, then they alternate to safety. This is because just running flat-out can get you shot easily since there is nothing to slow the enemy down or to prevent a good shot. Getting a good hit on a guy and running can cause the same effect since he’ll be in pain, which’ll make the shot harder to make. Plus, you create some time to get some distance to run. It is like I said, it takes you more time to turn and start running than it takes him to raise his arm and shoot. While a moving target is harder to hit, the closeness negates a lot of that and you have to put more time and energy into moving than it takes to for the guy to move his hand(s) to aim.
The dismantling is something only if you are really good, but I never said it was something that should be attempted. It is just something to think about. It is possible to do it with one hand and in one quick motion (and not even have to do it well to be effective), which makes it appealing, but not easy to do. It is more of a, if you can do it great, but if you can’t, don’t even try it. However, like I said, weapons like the 9mm pistol can be stopped from firing just by pushing on the barrel, which is something I wouldn’t try, but it is an option. This was stuff more of stuff I just throw out there because it is interesting stuff to do. Figuring out how to take the mazagine out (which just requires the push of a button) is possible just by looking at pictures on the internet.
The thing to remember about statistics though is that you can use them to prove anything. Not really, since seven feet is still really close. Close range shooting is about 50yds or less, which is coincidentally about the range. 7ft is not that far and like I said, it takes you more time to turn and run than it takes for him to raise his arm and shoot. It isn’t that hard to hit something from less than 50yds. Also, like I said, you can’t out run a bullet. Bullets travel faster than the speed of sound, and last I check no body ran faster than the speed of sound. Besides, you have to assume the worse and that he isn’t that drunk and can hit you. In this situation, both were probably drunk, so that doesn’t help much for running either. Anger isn’t even a factor, hell it could even help him.
That is basically my whole idea, which is a large part of the fight. The thing is that you have to be prepared for the hit not to work, which is why you fight. Also, depending on how the hit goes, you may be able to get the gun away from him and end the situation there.
Actually, I don’t have the opportunity to practice them a lot. I don’t have a pistol, we don’t always take out weapons, and I only go down once a month. I would not feel comfortable doing them. I was merely saying that it is something possible. I wouldn’t try some of the moves I’ve seen or mentioned in this thread since I’m not comfortable with them and I can’t get better with them.
The methods I talked about, like getting a good hit and running are available to anyone. I haven’t taken into account what I’ve learned from the MARINES, not Army. I’m held to great standards than you. If I fight, I’ll get in a lot more trouble than you will. You’ll just get the cops; I’ll get the cops and the military punishing more. The law applies to me the same as it does to you. Just hitting someone isn’t something you need training for, which is what I suggested. Just getting someone on the ground and beating the crap out of them doesn’t take training. I’m not saying to do specific moves or anything. I’m saying to go with your instinct in fighting. Like you already know more or are assuming you should know way more than is necessary for my suggestions. My thing about disarming if more about just hitting them enough that they drop it or working it out of their hands which ever way you can.
Bycreating a commotion, the cosp are more likely to be called. Hell, the owner, and therefore the bartender too, would be responsible if they let a fight just go on. It is about attracting attention to what is happening, while keeping a shot from being fired. Just yelling could get you shot since they’ll shoot and run before anybody comes. Fighting them could keep the shot from being fired.
At that close of a range, you don’t have to be very skilled to be able to hit somebody with a gun. Besides, do you know how good of a shot the person pointing a gun at you is? Probably not, but it’s probably safer to assume he knows how to use it, especially if he is carrying it around.
But what happens after you sprint and get tired? They catch up to you. How do you know that they can’t run well? You don’t, so assume they can out run you. Besides, you are turning and running, they are going straight and running they have the advantage. I never said to not pull any tricks while running, it is just that in that close of a situation, you aren’t going to be fast enough. It is like I said in my first post, only Superman or the Flash can run faster than a bullet. So even if you have the best 100 yd dash time in the world, you still won’t out tun the bullet.
This was more of a suggestion, not a definitive statement. I just know that hitting someone in the balls will hurt a lot and you don’t need to try too hard.
It isn’t so much a build of tolerance, more of the adrenaline keeping the pain down. The good quick hit that I talked about earlier, is more of a surprise to them. It can a take a little bit to process what just happened, giving you time to run or giving you the advantage in a fight. I just suggested a kick to the balls since it is easy and is a big sensitive area that doesn’t require much strength of precision to pull off effectively.
Actually, I said fighting would have been a bad option in this case. I never said that there was a gauranteed solotion, I was merely pointing out that running as you said is not the best option as you said. I was pointing out that fighting in conjunction to running would be more effective since allows you to create distance.
Running riases the intensity fast though. You have to assume that the guy has the weapon and is willing to use it, which is why you don’t just run.
The whole about fight or flight is based on the assumption that there is no way to diffuse the situation.