yes i prolly shouldnt have started with the fight thing.
And another thing char, someone else closed my thread before any one could even answer to it.
This thread is about religon, it doesnt matter what religon, we are just going to debate. To start thngs off, Do miracles exsist, such as the Bible stories. Me, i believe that its all true and God can do anyhting he wants to do.
Miracles are just our way of explaining events and phenomena our human minds cannot fully comprehend yet. Or they’re random events and phenomena we can fully comprehend, but our ingrained hubris and self-importance won’t allow us to accept them as completely random, thus we ascribe some supernatural quality like ‘miracle’ to them.
Before anyone jumps on me with false inferences, I’m not commenting on the existence of God with that statement. I’m just giving a perspective on ‘miracles’.
So if God can do anything he wants, can he create a rock so heavy that even he can’t lift it?
If He’ s omnipotent, He can’ t be non-omnipotent. He wouldn’ t lift the rock only if He didn’ t want to.
And you, NightmareGun, I appreciate what you think and your sig. It’ s rare to find such thoughts nowadays.
To everyone: I believe in God, miracles and the like. They are paranormal events that can’ t be verified with rationality, otherwise they wouldn’ t be called miracles, don’ t you think? The main reason because people don’ t believe in God is because they think that if He existed He would stop evil. He would go against one of the basic rules: free will. War, for example, is the result of free will. What’ s the point of God stopping wars if we would restart them in a few days? People must understand themselves, God forces no one.
If a thread is closed, it’s not a good idea to re-open it.
You’ re right. It only starts flame wars caused by non open-minded people.
Whether or not I believe in God is none of your concern. The issue here I certianly do not believe in ideals associated with the majority people that follow a God(s), and that I do not enjoy certian belief systems being imposed. And I don’t always mean imposed in the literal sence, the condensending nature of most people is enough to satsify this.
They are paranormal events that can’ t be verified with rationality, otherwise they wouldn’ t be called miracles, don’ t you think?
To a person living several thousand years ago, a bolt of lightning was a paranormal event caused by and angry/vengeful/capricious/whatever God. But now we know that lightning is merely the result of an ionic imbalance between the atmosphere and the ground.
When one chooses to believe in something as a ‘miracle’, they form an opinion without checking all the facts. Sure, they may perform numerous experiments to try and prove something natural caused the phenomenon, but failure to find a natural answer does not immediately mean ‘God did it’. ‘God did it’ is never an acceptable solution, because it cannot be proven. Only by further study of nature can we understand everything that happens in this world. Anything else means ignoring solid scientific work, and as a scientist, I - for one - will not accept ‘God did it’ as a valid solution.
Also I’ll note again that I’m not indenting to bash anyone’s faith in God or gods or spirits or whatever. I’m just noting that faith alone is not a valid enough method for interpreting the world around us, as there’s no way to prove it.
So, how do you know what God will or won’t do - or what he wants or doesn’t want to do?
So sure, he may or may not WANT to lift that rock, but that is irrelevent in whether or not he actually can. If he can create a rock so heavy that he himself cannot lift it, then he is not omnipotent - because there is something he cannot do. If he can’t create that rock, then he still isn’t omnipotente because, once again, there is something he cannot do.
Is this another opportunity for you to try and make us believe in your God, and how we’ll all suffer if we don’t listen to you?
I believe in God, miracles and the like. They are paranormal events that can’ t be verified with rationality, otherwise they wouldn’ t be called miracles, don’ t you think? The main reason because people don’ t believe in God is because they think that if He existed He would stop evil. He would go against one of the basic rules: free will. War, for example, is the result of free will. What’ s the point of God stopping wars if we would restart them in a few days? People must understand themselves, God forces no one.
Well, if God doesn’t intervene as you say, then there are no such things as miracles. What kind of loving almighty Father would only choose to help some and ignore the majority? It just doesn’t make sense, well, for those of us who believe in a fair, and loving, non-intervening higher power.
What? Of course he can! Since God is an all-powerful bearded human wizard in white robes sitting on top of Mt. Everest, he is EXACTLY of the nature that would create giant boulders and then lift them, because he’s a corporeal being that doesn’t have anything better to do with his time.
This argument I’m about to present was created mostly by a friend of mine, and I’ve just altered a bit of it to better suit the conversation.
The definition of the Judeo-Christian God is an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient being. Omnipresence and omnipotence spring from omniscience. That’s debatable, but let’s take that as a theory.
Now, omniscience is to know all. My friend stipulates there are two kinds of knowledge: that which comes from fact and that which comes from experience. Factual knowledge is “the sky is blue.” It’s knowledge that you know, instantly, as soon as someone tells you it.
Knowledge that comes from experience, however, is different. It’s “she goes crazy if you rub her ears” or “poking yourself with something sharp hurts.” You won’t know she goes crazy if you rub her ears until you rub her ears, and you won’t know poking yourself with something sharp hurts until you poke yourself with something sharp, even if someone told you these things. You won’t know until you do. Experience is not something that can be touched; it is the touching.
An experience requires a first person to experience it. A first person is an individual, apart from other individuals in that his or her experiences are unique.
Now, take the omniscient God. He knows all. How? In order to possess every fact of experience, he must have experienced every experience. But in order to have the experience, then he must be a first person. But in order to have every experience, he must have been every first person ever to exist. But if he was every first person ever to exist, then the definition of the first person is rendered void because the first person is defined as being apart from other first persons. And supposing we accept the idea of omnipotence springing from omniscience. God could not make himself omniscient through omnipotence because he would first have to be omniscient to be omnipotent. The contradiction there can’t be overcome no matter how you look at it, except in the blind view of “This is God, and He can do what he likes.”
With that said, I don’t believe in miracles. Nothing miraculous can spring from a contradiction of itself.