Rap

The Core RPGC Main Forum
1

I have mixed feelings. As a genre I find it unmeritable, but when it’s used in the right ways I actually really enjoy it.

Take bands like Guano Apes and Linkin Park. They use a lot of rap in their music, but it’s never the focus of the song. They use it to accentuate the rhythm and sometimes to add another dimension to the singing. When these bands rap, it’s almost always behind someone else’s singing. When it isn’t, there are a few things that really stand out about it. First, neither of these bands curse very much. Second, the lyrics are usually introspective and challenging. Third, they take full advantage of internal rhyming to make interesting rhythm changes and emphasize certain words.

My bottom line is this: genre rap is dirt, but I can appreciate how rap can be used in a song effectively if the artist knows what they are doing.

2

3

That’s one fucking badass fight scene. But please, on topic.

4

I’d pay good money to see that fight.

5

Wow, I really never thought of it like that. Your right that rap can be used in a song effectively if the artist knows what they are doing. But rap is mostly ment for covers of a variety of subjects, from social struggle to sex and money. Rap really isn’t a good genre of music to have very good meanings in there songs,thats why I never did like it. If the song has no meaning, then what is there to sing about?

6

Good rap does have aesthetic appeal. The problem is that the CURRENT mainstream music scene doesn’t exactly have much good rap (or good anything else, for that matter).

As for Linkin Park and Guano Apes… I don’t see what the big deal is. If I want rap-rock, I’ll go with RatM or Biohazard, thank you.

Furthermore, just because you dislike rap as a genre does not mean that it is “dirt.” If you cannot find any merit in it personally, fine. You dislike it. But to call it dirt is to beyond aesthetic judgement and wanders into an aesthetic dictatorship.

chocobo_will: Has no meaning? If you actually analyze the text in the music you will find that it most definately DOES mean something. This is especially true when we’re speaking of early rap artists and even “gangsta” rap.

Tell me that “The Message” by Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five means nothing. Tell me that:

It’s like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin’ under
It’s like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin’ under

Broken glass everywhere
People pissin’ on the stairs, you know they just don’t care
I can’t take the smell, can’t take the noise
Got no money to move out, I guess I got no choice
Rats in the front room, roaches in the back
Junkies in the alley with a baseball bat
I tried to get away but I couldn’t get far
'cuz a man with a tow truck repossessed my car

Don’t push me ‘cuz I’m close to the edge
I’m trying not to lose my head
Uh huh ha ha ha
It’s like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin’ under

Standin’ on the front stoop hangin’ out the window
Watchin’ all the cars go by, roarin’ as the breezes blow
Crazy lady, livin’ in a bag
Eatin’ outta garbage pails, used to be a fag hag
Said she’ll dance the tango, skip the light fandango
A Zircon princess seemed to lost her senses
Down at the peep show watchin’ all the creeps
So she can tell her stories to the girls back home
She went to the city and got social security
She had to get a pimp, she couldn’t make it on her own

Don’t push me 'cuz I’m close to the edge
I’m trying not to lose my head
Uh huh ha ha ha

It’s like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin’ under
It’s like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin’ under

My brother’s doin’ bad, stole my mother’s TV
Says she watches too much, it’s just not healthy
“All My Children” in the daytime, “Dallas” at night
Can’t even see the game or the Sugar Ray fight
The bill collectors, they ring my phone
and scare my wife when I’m not home
Got a bum education, double-digit inflation
Can’t take the train to the job, there’s a strike at the station
Neon King Kong standin’ on my back
Can’t stop to turn around, broke my sacroiliac
A mid-range migraine, cancered membrane
Sometimes I think I’m goin’ insane
I swear I might hijack a plane!

Don’t push me ‘cuz I’m close to the edge
I’m trying not to lose my head
It’s like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin’ under
It’s like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin’ under

My son said, Daddy, I don’t wanna go to school
'cuz the teacher’s a jerk, he must think I’m a fool
And all the kids smoke reefer, I think it’d be cheaper
if I just got a job, learned to be a street sweeper
Or dance to the beat, shuffle my feet
Wear a shirt and tie and run with the creeps
'cuz it’s all about money, ain’t a damn thing funny
You got to have a con in this land of milk and honey
They pushed that girl in front of the train
Took her to the doctor, sewed her arm on again
Stabbed that man right in his heart
Gave him a transplant for a brand new start
I can’t walk through the park 'cuz it’s crazy after dark
Keep my hand on my gun ‘cuz they got me on the run
I feel like a outlaw, broke my last glass jaw
Hear them say “You want some more?”
Livin’ on a see-saw

Don’t push me 'cuz I’m close to the edge
I’m trying not to lose my head
Say what?

It’s like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin’ under
It’s like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin’ under

It’s like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin’ under

It’s like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin’ under

A child is born with no state of mind
Blind to the ways of mankind
God is smilin’ on you but he’s frownin’ too
Because only God knows what you’ll go through
You’ll grow in the ghetto livin’ second-rate
And your eyes will sing a song called deep hate
The places you play and where you stay
Looks like one great big alleyway
You’ll admire all the number-book takers
Thugs, pimps and pushers and the big money-makers
Drivin’ big cars, spendin’ twenties and tens
And you’ll wanna grow up to be just like them, huh
Smugglers, scramblers, burglars, gamblers
Pickpocket peddlers, even panhandlers
You say I’m cool, huh, I’m no fool
But then you wind up droppin’ outta high school
Now you’re unemployed, all non-void
Walkin’ round like you’re Pretty Boy Floyd
Turned stick-up kid, but look what you done did
Got sent up for a eight-year bid
Now your manhood is took and you’re a Maytag
Spend the next two years as a undercover fag
Bein’ used and abused to serve like hell
'til one day, you was found hung dead in the cell
It was plain to see that your life was lost
You was cold and your body swung back and forth
But now your eyes sing the sad, sad song
Of how you lived so fast and died so young so…

Don’t push me 'cuz I’m close to the edge
I’m trying not to lose my head
Uh huh huh huh huh

It’s like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin’ under
Huh, uh huh huh huh huh
It’s like a jungle sometimes
It makes me wonder how I keep from goin’ under
Huh, uh huh huh huh huh

7

RatM is another example I should’ve included. I haven’t listened to Biohazard.

LP isn’t really rap-rock. They are, but they’re different… It’s hard to explain. They’re too melodic to be in the same category as bands like Guano Apes, and the way they use rap doesn’t doesn’t agree with the conventional rap-rock style. I think they’re both good examples of effective rapping though.

But to call it dirt is to beyond aesthetic judgement and wanders into an aesthetic dictatorship.
Semantics. My comments are what they are. Don’t think too hard about them. Remember, it was only <i>my</i> bottom line.

I don’t think gangster rap has meaning either. Meaning isn’t really meaning if you’re saying the same things as everyone else because it’s a winning formula and nothing more.

8

If you’re going to criticize the formula, then why are the first gangster rap artists bad? The first to highlight the problems that were actually happening. I know it’s a cliché, but it’s generally adviseable that you “write what you know.” If you experienced gang wars and racism, and you were a writer of any sort, you’d want to write about it (explicitly, like in gangsta rap, or allegorically in another medium). The real criticism I have are those who didn’t go through any of those things and only did it for the money.

Of course, we could criticize similar formulas in other music, especially classic rock music and modern rock. Even Linkin Park uses a pretty sucessful formula to get more record sales (which I don’t have much problem with, because they were one of the first to use their particular formula- invent your own, man).

9

The real criticism I have are those who didn’t go through any of those things and only did it for the money.
Yeah, that’s all I’m saying too.

I don’t think Linkin Park is formulaic because they don’t follow some kind of step-by-step recipe for their songs like rap artists do. They build their songs around a message and it’s up to them to choose how they want to convey it. They have a purpose and not every song they produce was produced with the same procedure. Money flows in because they make polished, meaningful music for the sake of making polished, meaningful music.

With gangster rap, things work in reverse. Rap artists start with the idea that they need to make money. In order to do this they go to their successful rap song cookbook, choose a song, and follow the instructions meticulously. A hint of remorse. A tbsp of the 'jects. One cup of gunfire. They didn’t write the messages. The words are just there because they have to be in order to achieve their goal. It’s meaningless cookie cutter music and it doesn’t move me or challenge me.

Both of them use a formula to an extent, but LP doesn’t use a formula for the sole reason that it’s successful. They use different formulas to achieve different goals and those goals affect the meaning of the messages within their music. LP’s messages mean more to me because they come from human beings, not emotionless recipes.

10

I have the exact same opinion, when it’s not the focus of the song, rap can be good, but things like 50 Cent are awful.

11

They certainly rap, and they rock, even if it is very lightly (or “litely,” if you are a son of a bitch). I think this qualifies them for rap-rock.

I remember hearing you say something about Linkin Park? Nevermind, teen angst has never, ever, ever, ever been a “winning formula” for selling music. The only thing arguable is the “nothing more” which depends on individual bands not genres, Hades.

I don’t think that’s a fair generalization of rap. First off, I don’t think you really know how rappers go about writing their lyrics. A good many of them have cookie-cutter, pre-assembled songs, but that is the sort of thing that occurs when any genre becomes popular. For example, in the rap-rock genre of Linkin Park, you totally neglect to mention Limp Bizkit, and other such bands that followed and made shitty, cookie-cutter music in the wake of a popular band with some modicum of talent. Skilled lyricists, who are interested in art, tend not to just write songs to be popular, regardless of genre. Many rappers don’t go the popular route; Dr. Octagon just wrote a song about global warming. The melting of the polar icecaps is not a gats-n-hoes cliche. Tupac, although “gangsta” rap, has amazing lyrics. Listen to Changes if you don’t believe me.
The issue of money becomes more complicated in the rap world, when it comes to musical formula, instead of lyrical. As these are generally people who grew up in poverty and have found music as a way out of it, so they’d very much like to make money. They probably don’t give a shit if a rich, pretentious wide kid (read: Hades) is upset that they have used a similar style to previous artists. Because they’re going to say what they want to say in the way that’s most likely to be successful. If that means using the right synth and making your voice sound exactly like Biggie or DMX, fair enough.

Kiro: Ugh! People generalizing a genre to one of its worse and more famous artists is the most irritating musical argument to make. This is almost as bad as generalizing punk to Sid Vicious or metal to Cinderella.

12

Personally, with a few exceptions, I think rap is rancid monkey feces.

Some rap from the 80’s and early 90s, Wierd Al’s parodies, Eminem and whatever you want to call Beastie Boys or the Bloodhound Gang is the farthest I’ll go.

13

They certainly rap, and they rock, even if it is very lightly (or “litely,” if you are a son of a bitch). I think this qualifies them for rap-rock.
Uh, thanks for that. I never said they weren’t rap-rock. I don’t really know what you’re trying to contradict here because you’re just repeating what I said while leaving out every single important detail.

(Just FYI, LP doesn’t rock lightly. They’re about as hard as Tool, sometimes harder.)

I remember hearing you say something about Linkin Park? Nevermind, teen angst has never, ever, ever, ever been a “winning formula” for selling music. The only thing arguable is the “nothing more” which depends on individual bands not genres, Hades.
Not only does LP never touch upon teen angst in any song they have ever written, but their topics are of a much broader range than that. You’re a casual hater of a band you haven’t listened to extensively and you’re grasping at imaginary straws. LP’s lyrics are usually about revenge, empowerment, mental toughness, or love. The only song that even comes close to being angsty is “Crawling” and you’ll find with any amount of scrutiny that it isn’t.

I don’t think that’s a fair generalization of rap. First off, I don’t think you really know how rappers go about writing their lyrics. A good many of them have cookie-cutter, pre-assembled songs, but that is the sort of thing that occurs when any genre becomes popular.For example, in the rap-rock genre of Linkin Park, you totally neglect to mention Limp Bizkit, and other such bands that followed and made shitty, cookie-cutter music in the wake of a popular band with some modicum of talent. Skilled lyricists, who are interested in art, tend not to just write songs to be popular, regardless of genre. Many rappers don’t go the popular route; Dr. Octagon just wrote a song about global warming. The melting of the polar icecaps is not a gats-n-hoes cliche. Tupac, although “gangsta” rap, has amazing lyrics. Listen to Changes if you don’t believe me.
This is obvious. The point is that there’s a bigger difference between the amount of good and bad rap out there than in any other genre. The fact that shitty music exists in every genre is no excuse for the fact that I can name two or three good rappers out of thousands, and no, Tupac is not one of them.

The issue of money becomes more complicated in the rap world, when it comes to musical formula, instead of lyrical. As these are generally people who grew up in poverty and have found music as a way out of it, so they’d very much like to make money. They probably don’t give a shit if a rich, pretentious wide kid (read: Hades) is upset that they have used a similar style to previous artists. Because they’re going to say what they want to say in the way that’s most likely to be successful. If that means using the right synth and making your voice sound exactly like Biggie or DMX, fair enough.
I’m pretentious? As opposed to the guy who’s using social status to excuse the creation of music that actually glorifies black poverty in order to make money? I’m living in borderline poverty myself and I don’t care about money. Being poor doesn’t necessitate the millions of dollars in cash-cowing that horrible rappers like Tupac can get away with. Oh wait, he’s dead. If only money could’ve bought him a second chance, or integrity. Well, can’t win em all.

Kiro: Ugh! People generalizing a genre to one of its worse and more famous artists is the most irritating musical argument to make. This is almost as bad as generalizing punk to Sid Vicious or metal to Cinderella.
And yet, with 50 Cent, it works.

14

Oh, oh! You see, the kids, they listen to the rap music which gives them the brain damage. With their hippin’, and the hoppin’, and the bippin’, and the boppin’, so they don’t know what the jazz…is all about! You see! Jazz is like the Jello Pudding Pop – no, actually, it’s more like Kodak film – no, actually, jazz is like the New Coke: it’ll be around forever, heh heh heh.

15

What’s the difference between me and you?

16

“LP isn’t really rap rock.”
You said that.
Direct quote.

As I said; light.

I do not hate Linkin Park. I actually don’t mind most of them, and like some. Points of Authority is a great song. They are, however, very related to teen angst. Or filled with enough ominous, angsty vaguaries to be seen as such by a large, large number of listeners, for bettwer or worse.

Do you know what Angst means?
Wait. We have had this exact discussion.
About this exact band, I believe.
If not, it was Hoobastank, either way, their songs are about many of those things, but generally also about angst. Angst is not a theme, it is an emotional tone, and one Linkin Park frequently utilizes in a context that could be applicable, very easily, to teenage woes. I am not having this debate again, because if you can’t even remember the definition from last time, there is no point. It’s like teaching a stoned monkey Bushido.

That occurs with any popular genre. The actually good leads to it becoming popular, then thousands of bands copy it for money. Before hip-hop was popular, it had a much higher good-bad ratio than the rock of the time, I think you’ll find. As for Tupac, that’s just a difference of opinion, I guess.

Firstly, I’ve seen very little rap that glorifies poverty; most of them glorify the money they’ve won coming out of poverty. The only glory in poverty is how far up you can move from it.
Secondly, that has nothing to do with pretention. At all. That is totally unrelated. It does not have a shred of relevance. It as far off the topic of pretention as Shane McGowan is off the list of people whose teeth will be used in a dental commercial. The reasoning here is “if A, then 7.” Your topic change is irrational. Do you understand?
Thirdly, I never said they cared what I thought either. I could well be pretentious. I mean, I like Camus and camembert cheese. That pretty much seals the deal.
Lastly, yes, you are pretentious. Look up pretentious in a dictionary and do a li’l search on this forum for any of those threads you’ve argued opinion-versus-fact with me.

You have a computer, Hades. You do not know what poverty is.

It evidently did buy him temporal extrasensory powers and general prescience, though. Actually, my theory is that his psitalent is the result of the way he wore his bandanna, but that is almost as irrelevant to this discussion as most of what you said, which is distressing, truly.
Now, though, being poor doesn’t necessitate that, but it can lead to wanting it; a friend of mine’s father grew up in extreme poverty (the kind where he doesn’t even have the basic human necessity of internet access, imagine that, if you can wrap your sheltered, narrow mind around it) and is now extremely tight with a buck, even though he doesn’t need to be, at all, any longer. Because he wants to be sure he never fucking goes back there.
Aside from that, many rappers (although a shrinking percentage) give a lot of money back to try and improve the areas they grew up in so other people don’t have to grow up the way they did. A few of them more money to a good cause than most your non-“cash-cowing” bands put together, very likely.
I, personally, don’t see where he lost integrity, how being a better musician in your opinion would’ve allowed him to rise from the grave. Integrity generally means honesty and staying true to your own moral and ethical beliefs. Tupac did that, even if he did not adhere to yours. You can call him immoral, but saying he did not maintain integrity would be hard to defend.
As for the part about being dead, I really don’t see what death has to do with this. At all. It’s like you didn’t have anything logical or reasonable to say, so you just decided “he’s dead, thats stoopid, amirite?” was to be the central conceit of your argument.

No. It does not. Because a large amount of rap, good or ill, is vastly different from 50 Cent. He just happens to have a movie, flavour of vitamin water (lo, I see unintentional self-parody on the horizon, Cousin), and truly unnatural degree of media attention, plus his notable figure and distinctive looks make him stick out in people’s head. He’s not an average or anything, he is the most notable figure and thusly the source of baseline generalization.
Similarly, Joe Strummer didn’t murder his girlfriend, intentionally OD out of guilt, or vomit on a television show host after calling another a “fucking rotter” on live television, so never became as famous an example of punk rock as Sid Vicious.

17

Anybody who makes a bad example of a subculture or musical group is going to be displayed with flashing lights by the media. Why do you think there’s such a fascination with Sid Vicious?

18

Especially a radical, or at least somewhat rebellious, youth subculter/band people want to execrate from the beginning, but haven’t found real excuse to. Or even a mild-mannered, but immensely popular scene, for the pure ratings value of it.

EDIT: Although, most of those people do not get their own flavour of Vitamin Water. Although, it is the best flavour, by far. I mean, that lemonade flavour gives you the vitamins you need to play soccer or some lame shit like that. Formula 50 (known as grape to the uncultred heathens among us) gives you the vitamins you need to take nine slugs to the chest and keep walking.

19

mf doom? :open_mouth:

20

Danger Doom, I believe, since Dr. Doom is in Danger from Darth Vader. Additionally, Cee-Lo dressed as Darth Vader at a Gnarles Barkley show, and Danger Mouse is in that band, too.
So Danger/Doom is my guess for his pictoral message to us.