If you don’t think an attitude can cause more harm than anything else, then I’d suggest rethinking your values. I think that’s what GAP hates, though I dislike putting words into his mouth. The fact that they have an attitude which assumes they are superior, ignores all hypocrisy present in their organisation and condemns everyone else for not listening to them while listening to no-one else.
Yup. The answer’s a).
I’m probably guilty of getting most of my info about Coronado from Penn and Teller, but fine, whatever. At least those guys admit their own biases while calling out PETA’s bullshit.
I admit, PETA bugs me, but I come from a province that has been targeted by them frequently. I may not have any family that participates in the seal hunt but I can understand what it feels like to come from an area where the main industry is attacked or otherwise affected by outside people who really don’t know what they’re talking about.
It’s all well and good to just say PETA makes a bunch of obnoxious ads, but the fact is people’s livelihoods are on the line in the seal hunt and those people’s lives are affected by what PETA does. Protesting it is one thing, but they go out of their way to misrepresent and misinform their supporters about the hunt. Despite PETA’s claims, the government does not endorse the killing of baby seals, and only seals over a certain age are legal to hunt. Does it still happen? Of course, there’s still a market for the pelts, but that doesn’t mean it’s legal and it doesn’t mean the hunt endorses it. PETA’s claims are like saying that because murder still happens in a country, despite it being illegal, the government must actually endorse murder.
There’s also the issues of the seals in the northern Atlantic having little or no natural predators and that without the hunt controlling the population they would overpopulate, destroy the cod population even further, and eventually die out entirely. But I guess a slow death through starvation is ok by PETA, just as long as we don’t profit at all from their loss.
I don’t think PETA is evil or ‘TEH DEVOL’ or whatever, but I don’t think they’re run by good people and I think they take advantage of well meaning, yet easily led, people who want to make a difference in the world. And I especially don’t like the sentiment that they and most of their supporters seem to put forward that if you attack PETA you’re for animal cruelty. Being pro-human doesn’t mean you’re anti-animal, but animals kill each other for their own benefit all the time, it’s just how nature works. Why is it any different for us, just because we’re conscious of it?
An attitude CAN cause a lot of harm. And whether or not the ALF people receive direct aid from PETA for their activities (I still think they do, but we can believe what we want) they’re certainly affected by PETA’s attitudes.
That’s fair enough, which is one of the reasons I hate MMORPGs.
True, but there are different values attributed to characters in D&D or a video game than in real life. If I had a chaotic good rogue, there would be nothing wrong with me sneaking behind someone and stabbing them to death because he was say a slaver. If I killed somebody because they were doing horrible, evil things in real life (say, a rapist), I’d be considered just as bad of a person. The killing of seals in WoW does not strike me as evil behavior within the context of the game because it seems a necessary part of the livelihood of the characters. They aren’t slaughtering the seals for fun, they’re doing it so they can get pelts and survive for the winter. Someone outside that specific culture might find it abhorrent, but that doesn’t mean they have the right to take away their livelihood. Even PETA has begrudgingly admitted that people such as the Inuit should be able to continue to hunt specific species of animals that are illegal for most people to hunt, simply because it would be difficult for them to survive otherwise.
Fair enough, but as I said they’re a fairly easy target to spot. Them and the Salvation Army (let’s deny homosexual and non-Christian homeless food and shelter on Christmas!).
Certainly animal life is “as important” as human life, but if you think about it that’s an absurd statement. That’s like saying tree life is just as important as plant life. Human beings are animals as well, and just like every other species on the planet, we should be concerned most with our survival. If we’re going to survive, certainly we should preserve as many other species of animals as we possibly can. But ultimately, we’re omnivorous beasts. We have teeth designed for the ripping of animal flesh and grinding of bones for a reason. It’s foolish to say that it is perfectly moral for a cat to eat a mouse, but it is immoral for a human being to eat a cow.
They don’t just make advertisements, though. They brainwash people into fighting for a bankrupt organization whose major aim is to generate revenue rather than actually affect change. The type of people that are motivated enough to fight for the “rights” of animals not to be eaten could be improving the quality of human lives, or performing jobs that would better serve the quality of animal life. Furthermore, there is evidence that PETA actually KILLS ANIMALS IT DOESN’T HAVE ROOM FOR!
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/06/23/EDG11DC9BK1.DTL
http://www.friendsofanimals.org/actionline/summer-2006/movement-watch.php
If that isn’t a completely bullshit reprehensible superhypocritical move, then I don’t know what is. It’s stuff like THIS that makes my rage against them completely fucking justified.
EDIT: Furthermore, their backwards ideas on animal testing would actually hurt the scientific community. Ingrid Newkirk has some choice quotes on this.
“Even if animal experiments did result in a cure for AIDS, of which there is no chance, I’d be against it on moral grounds.”
Oh, and just in case you think that PETA doesn’t advocate violence:
"Our nonviolent tactics are not as effective. We ask nicely for years and get nothing. Someone makes a threat, and it works. "
and
“I wish we all would get up and go into the labs and take the animals out or burn them down.”
Note that it’s either take the animals out OR burn them down, likely killing animals (and humans) in the process of saving them.
But I take bigger issue with her AIDS statement than I do her condoning of terrorist acts. This is an organization that would rather human beings suffer than the imaginary (but not the actual) animal suffer. If a cure for Cancer comes from smashed monkey testicles (I know, that’s a little ridiculous), I wouldn’t be protesting. I’m not so big on biology, but I know enough to say safely human beings lifespans would not be so long or of such high quality if it weren’t for animal testing. They clearly do a lot more than make silly adverts, Arac.
See, the thing is, I’m getting longer, angrier comments for not-even-defending PETA in commenting on the ridiculous level of hate levied on them relative to their crimes against the world, than X-wing got for defending fascism in a much more committed way.
Silly quotes are about the same level as silly adverts. You can’t really cite one person PETA has killed. They’ll do some property damage, maybe, say something ridiculous and at least a little stupid, but then very correctly point out that Marilyn Manson really shouldn’t wear leather pants. They’re hypocrites but so’s everybody else. There are so many worse people and groups of people who do things that are just as bad for far worse reasons, yet nobody complains about.
I just think it’s ridiculous how into hating PETA people get. I can’t imagine taking them all that seriously. It just strikes me as a hipster-er version of hating Republicans when they really aren’t all that different from democrats.
I’m not angry at you, or even angry at you defending PETA. I enjoy arguing. Just think of this as Punch-Out. I’m pretty sure I’ve left some patterns in there you can punch through. Christ. I’m not Glass Joe, but I’m not Mr. Sandman. Hell, I’m not even Bald Bull. 
While I believe in what I’m arguing, don’t think that I’m going to bite your balls off for thinking for yourself.
Although perhaps they haven’t killed people, there was that whole thing about them killing animals. cough <_<;
That doesn’t mean much though. Groups for universal suffrage disappeared after they succeeded and no one’s the worse for it.
Certainly animal life is “as important” as human life, but if you think about it that’s an absurd statement.
Different set of beliefs. If, say, I believe I could be reincarnated into a buffalo, I’d be all about giving pedicures to buffaloes. Someone else may think taxpayer money would be better used otherwise, but buffaloes will ultimately not get pedicures because most people won’t support them. Get enough believers and no one may harm a cow (India).
Yeah, but, I mean, if we’re counting animal deaths, people should be ridiculously infuriated at the meat industry rather than PETA, kinda like exactly how PETA is.
The meat industry doesn’t lie about killing animals, and actually uses the corpses for something (meat, clothing, et cetera). PETA claims that killing an animal is never acceptable, and nod only does it anyway, but just dumps the bodies. It’s prettty clear which is more immoral.
Man GAP, you and me should get together sometime. Everyone else I know gets tired of arguing way too fast for my liking.
You can thank SK, Sin, and Merlin for that. I was really embarrassed when I came to the EZboards and couldn’t keep up with them. I still can’t keep up with them, but my ability to argue has been considerably improved by watching them, as well as studying logic and philosophy. It’s odd that RPGClassics has impacted the way I structure my arguments (even in an academic or casual non-internet setting).
Man, I love watching those people argue on these boards. SK is my favorite. He really does keep me informed about some subjects I’d only have very superficial understanding of otherwise. Though I can’t claim even afterwards to have the extent of knowledge he does.
Yeah this place I think had a bit the same impact on me.
Man, I love this place.
The difference, I believe, is in the sheer numbers killed. If the ultimate wrong is considered to be taking a life/doing harm to a life, then 10,000 pales in comparison to the number of murders (again, this is if we consider animal deaths as such) at the hands of the meat industry.
Does PETA have a problem with eating animals in general or with the practices of the widespread meat industry? If we are all animals, and other animals are perfectly justified in killing to eat, am I allowed to kill animals too to survive? Like, can I hunt (or potentially fish) for survival and not waste the animal? You know, take only what I need and use it all.
Or does PETA place some greater burden on humanity saying humans, for some reason, should not be allowed to eat meat?
Ionno.
984: PETA believes that animal killing is wrong no matter what. PETA’s slogan makes this abundently clear: “Animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, or use for entertainment.”
Arac: The numbers are completely irrelivent. PETA is doing something that they consider wrong, and the meat industry’s killing of animals is not wrong by their own standards, OR the standards of most people in the world. Granted, I think that we should change the way we treat our animals, especially by reforming/completely overhauling factory farms. But as human beings eat meat, there is absolutely nothing wrong with killing an animal for meat. I reiterate: there is a large difference between using an animal and killing it and throwing its corpse away.
I don’t know how someone can defend PETA’s actions when you hear about things like this (from the second article I posted): “An Associated Press report quoted veterinarian Patrick Proctor of Ahoskie Animal Hospital as further stating that authorities found a female cat and her two ‘very adoptable’ kittens among the dead animals, and that ‘these were just kittens we were trying to find homes for.’”
So that makes PETA hypocrites to an extent? They’re against killing animals for (insert reason), but have no issues doing the same and just throwing away the corpses. Sounds fucked up.
As far as killing for meat, isn’t that more or less the cycle of life taking place? Hell, people have killed for meat for over several thousand years. To just up and say you can’t do that anymore is pretty much going against everything we’ve done in the past. Do slaughter houses and factory farms need higher standards? Probably so, but there’s different ways to go about it and not be stupid about it. I guess I’m agreeing with some of GAP’s statements on this.
Besides, for some real kicks and giggles, somebody should put some PETA people on an island and see how they survive. They’re gonna hunt for some meat eventually…
Arguing with SK is scary. O_o No matter how right I think I am when I go in and how well I know what I’m talking about, I end up looking like a moron.
PETA is an embarrassment to anybody who wants reasonable things and/or wants to be a vegetarian themselves without forcing everybody else to listen to their shrill demands.
What’s really funny is that PETA is more shrill about killing some animals than others. Baby seals and kittens are cute and therefore deserve our sympathy. Alligators, grizzly bears and insects aren’t and therefore get much less screen time.
To play Devil’s Advocate for PETA, I think they put the cute animals on posters more often because, well, they’re cute. They are are seen as better animals in most people’s eyes. Many people that have no problem eating meat have a problem with killing “cute animals.” If PETA gets enough people outraged about cute animal killings until that’s illegal, it would then be expanded to apply to other animals too. You work for what’s easier first so that the future goal has more general support through analogy behind it.
They do, after all, hate killing chickens and fish. Remember the chicken/Holocaust comparison? Renaming fish to “sea kittens?” Neither animal is cute, but they are still trying to stop people from killing those.
Chickens are cute, in a clueless kind of way, and while up close fish are pretty icky, they’re common enough that people don’t consider them “ewww”. Things like alligators and bugs, though…