Patriotisim/Nationalisim, Flags, and other such stuff

What you did Sorc is noble, truely noble. Seeing someone stand for what they believe in is seeing honor. But the question here shouldn’t be whether it was the “right” thing or the “noble” thing to do. I’m just not sure that the cost justifies the means. Your decision to opt out of the flag was bad, yet tolerable. Merely a sign of what you stand for. It’s your decision to undermine your teacher and principle where it’s going to catch you. As a high schooler, your influence is nothing to the adults you are opposing. They’d just as merilly cut your legs out from under you and leave you without a high school education as a child would take candy.

You should wait until college, or even after before you make steps like these. At that stage you’ll have the weight of education and experience behind you and they’ll have a good reason to listen to you then. Yet, as they see you now, you’re just a kid making a ruccus. These aren’t people who see you as their peer, Sorc, they see themselves as above you and will do anything to keep you in line. Remember that, and act more rashly next time.

Now, before anyone gets too defensive about what I’ve written, just know that I’m not in opposition to what Sorc did. This is just a warning to him. I’m just afraid that he might be getting into some hot water here, and I don’t want to see him get burned.

Originally posted by Cless Alvein
[b]The flag is nevertheless merely a representation, not the country itself. One may choose to respect one’s country in a different manner other than the one subscribed by some person hundreds of years ago. Not standing up during a flag raising or whatever does not necessarily mean disrespect towards the country, as shown by Sorc’s case. He did not say or in <b>any way</b> imply the words “Screw you America, you suck”. Sure, he may have been displeased with the actions of the leaders of the country, but he did not in any way do harm to the country. This is just like the with-us-or-against-us mindset. Furthermore, since it is written in a United States government document, it makes it perfectly okay.

Whether one is obligated to have pride in one’s country is an entirely different matter. [/b]

The thing is that it is tradition and know that in mos tplaces tradition is very important. As I said, it is a way of showing support for those that protect you. Did I not say that the Pledge of Allegiance isn’t a bit dated? Despite it being dated it should be observed just for the respect. What I’m saying with the “Screw you America” bit is that it is like saying that despite wether you mean it or not and I know Sorc doesn’t mean that. Let’s put it on a smaller and more personal scale. It’s a bit like ignoring your parents birthday or not acknowledging it. Sure yoru parents knwo that you still love them, but it is pretty disrepectful. Is there any law saying that you have to have to acknowledge your parents’ birthdays? No, but should you? Yes. Haven’t you ever heard that it’s the little things that count?

I’d also like to add that, does it really take awy fromy our day and is it hard to do? The time is set aside for it. It isn’t too hard to do and it doesn’t hurt anything.

Im glad they dont do that where I come from. Although my ifrst school was a catholic school and they made everyone stand up and pray… shit like that. I guess that’s just as tediuos or summin.?

Yes, it is your right to not stand for the pledge if you do not want to, but I don’t think your justification of “not feeling patriotic today” is really a decent justification for refusing to stand for the pledge. I think you’re confusing issues here. The flag does not represent Bush, or any single president or issue. As far as I’m concerned, by not standing for the pledge, you are denying everything America stands for, not just the issues you feel are incorrect. Face it: when America turns more liberal, then there will be a pile of conservatives just as disenfranchised with the country as you are right now. By standing for the flag, you are saying that you are still proud of the fact you have the right to dissent with your leaders without fear of reprisal. By not standing for it, you are denying the whole of America, and thus your own right to dissent. And this is why I believe you are not justified in your actions. I don’t see what is so “materialistic” about the pledge. The pledge and the flag are about as pure ofsymbols you can get…

Originally posted by zeppelin
By standing for the flag, you are saying that you are still proud of the fact you have the right to dissent with your leaders without fear of reprisal.

Actually no, if you say anything that can be “interpreted as a threat” to the president the secret service will investigate this and interrogate you. Merely disagreeing with the countries leaders (such as anti-war supporters after 9-11) will probably not provoke govt. investigation but you’ll still be at risk to threats and vandalism from civillians. So no, fear of reprisal is still strong.

if you go into a public area and say threatening things toward the president, then you should be interrogated. It is a safety mechanism to preserve democracy. If you are instigating thoughts of a coup or assassination, then you are using unsound methods to achieve your desired change. if you think people are afraid the FBI is listening in on them when they are talking with friends, than you are just paranoid.

Originally posted by Gila-Monster
Why’s that? Holland isn’t exactly doing bad because of that.

<img src=“http://www.rpgclassics.com/staff/tenchimaru/td.gif”> It might just be me, but I don’t particulary enjoy people using drugs everywhere, especially not near me, nor do I like it when I have to pass 3 prostitute base camps to get home (well, I did during the summer when I was spending the night somewhere else, but yeah.) And although statistically drug-abuse has decreased, if you see 5 out of 6 people at school doing it (don’t know how that is over at your countries, but I guess it’s higher due to it being legal), you kinda start thinking otherwise.

Patriotism Good. Nationalism Bad.

After the original incarnation of the pledge, it was revised twice against the wishes of its author, and finally got a religious reference added to it in the McCarthy era, after lobbying by a special interest group. There’s little purity in that. As for the flag, it represents this country now as then, meaning that it represents everything it’s done, past and present. However, I do agree with you insofar as I think that people who protest against the government should actively move to retake the language of patriotism (association with the flag, for one thing) from the nationalists who have usurped it for their own political gain, rather than distance themselves from it.

“Merely disagreeing with the countries leaders (such as anti-war supporters after 9-11) will probably not provoke govt. investigation”

Actually, many anti-war activists have now found that they were irrevocably placed on the government’s no-fly list.

If anyone ever tried to pull that bullshit on me I don’t care, land of the free I don’t have to salute there damnable flag.

Flags, Fuckers, and Freedom Fries.

But sorc, you keep on fighting teh system like that. I respect you.

Originally posted by Sephiroth Katana
However, I do agree with you insofar as I think that people who protest against the government should actively move to retake the language of patriotism (association with the flag, for one thing) from the nationalists who have usurped it for their own political gain, rather than distance themselves from it.

YES. Exactly.

To clarify my position, I don’t see not standing for the pledge as disrespectful. I stand and say the pledge because I have pride in the good things my country has done, even if it has done MANY things wrong (and not just under Bush). Being disrespectful to the flag would involve things like spitting at it, careless handling (letting it touch the ground), and improper disposal (there are two proper methods for the American flag, a ceremonial burning, or a ceremonial burial).
Since I didn’t say this before, good for you Sorc, for standing up foor your rights.,

<img src=“http://www.rpgclassics.com/staff/tenchimaru/td.gif”> Uh, it’s a piece of cloth. I really don’t see why it isn’t allowed to touch the ground, or why I can’t just toss it in the trash and get a new one when the old one is all worn out. I’m not going to set my lawn on fire to burn a flag.

It started out as military tradition; however, it has since gone and become a part of proper flag ettiquette. Flags used to serve on the battlefield as a manner of commands, like flags for archers, cavalry, etc. The main nation flag (or a war representation flag such as the Confederate Battle Emblem) was sometimes used as a marker to have troops follow it in either attacking or retreating. In the craziness of battle, it served as a way for them to go in case they forgot which was which. As such, it was military tradition and procedure not to let the flag touch the ground.

As for why burning is the proper disposal? I dunno. Maybe because when they first got rid of old flags they HAD to burn them rather than let a bunch of faded cloth pile up in the dungeon?

My idea of nationalism/patriotism?

Actually wanting to “give a damn” for it.

We’re currently studying nationalism etc. in History class, so I could always explain the Marxist (or two others I don’t remember the name of and would probably not be able to translate anyway) theory (conspiracymanipulationaugh!) on how it came about. =P In essence, I’ve heard too much about it these last few weeks to be able to define it in any way.

Oh, and… applauds Sorc

Good show, Sorc.

I am Canadian and I do not pledge allegiance my flag, although I respect it. Although I am technically a dual citizen since my parents are Americans, I have chosen to become solely a Canadian citizen.

“Let me tell you something man, my daddy died for that flag!”

"Really? Wow. I bought mine. They sell 'em everywhere you know. No violence was necessary.

“Yeah, he died in the Vietnam war for that flag!”

“What an amazing coincidence! Mine was made in Vietnam…”

:smiley:

Patriots love their country (i.e. land that constitutes it, the people who live on it, and the laws that govern it).

Nationalists love their country’s flag (i.e. an abstract symbol that’s at least one degree removed from the land, people, laws, and so on).

Originally posted by KaiserVonAlmasy
[b]“Let me tell you something man, my daddy died for that flag!”

"Really? Wow. I bought mine. They sell 'em everywhere you know. No violence was necessary.

“Yeah, he died in the Vietnam war for that flag!”

“What an amazing coincidence! Mine was made in Vietnam…”
[/b]

LOL!:hahaha; :mwahaha: :hahaha;

Exo: you owe it to yourself to check out Bill Hicks [he’s in my avatar]. That joke is one of his.

Best comedian of the last 25 years, I’d say. Sadly, he’s dead.

www.billhicks.com
Go.

Now.