Patriotisim/Nationalisim, Flags, and other such stuff

Well, today was an interesting day.

First period rolls around, so we get announcements and stuff which includes the 40 seconds of silence and the pledge to the flag. I was feeling a bit less than patriotic today, so I didn’t stand, and remained oblivious to my teacher commanding everyone in my class to stand for the flag. I refused to do so, not only because I didn’t hear her, and when she singled me out and asked me directly, I said that I didn’t have to. And I’m right - I know I am, but she decided to make a thing of this.

So she pulls me outside, and starts on me. “You were insubordinate and violated county policy, which states that everyone must stand to the flag.” Now, off the top of my head I know that’s bullshit. I am very familiar with my counties school policy, because I happen to know the people that wrote it. My mom’s boss is the former head of the state board of education, and plays a very active role in the state educational reform. She trys to threaten me with some bullshit like “Wanna go to the principal?” Knowing I’m fully in the right, I say yea, sure, lets go. She backs down almost immediatly and tells me to write a brief reason why I don’t stand for the flag. I most happily obliged.

Being pretty good with the written word, I got to work on something that would pull me out of this idiocy. 3 paragraphs totaling a page and a half, first paragraph briefly stated my reasons for why I didn’t stand for the flag, which included me blasting the recent Iraq war (not directly, I left that to her immagination). I said something like “recent events have indulged this country in a situation that, of my own opinion, deem to be unconstitutional, immoral, illogical, and pyhiscally unsound.” Second paragraph was about what I thought patriotisim was, and what I knew it wasn’t, which I happily said that eyeing a flag and reciting a statement that was older than everyone in the classroom put together was not patriotisim, and to think so was “foolishly materialistic”. Third paragraph said that I would happily run the race with her, and that if she wanted to turn this into a “ludacris, treasonus affair, then so be it”, and that being a true patriot was upholding the values of our country, which include being able to hold and maintain our own opinions about what goes on without the fear of persecution. I was proud of my little punishment. So I turned it in, watched her face distort with curiosity and distaste, and slide it into her desk drawer. The vice principal came in, asked if this was the class with the problem, and she said yes, but it had been rectified. Made me feel good that I had won, despite the fact that I knew I would regardless. I have my mom’s friend’s cell phone number in my cell phone phone book, which I assure you is not readily available to just anybody. (Not to make you think that I’m somehow a somebody, but when it comes to stuff like this, my mom makes me much more than just a regular student).

So while I was drafting out my “brief statement”, it donned on me that while her idea of patriotisim was obviously a bit different than mine, and that was fine because it was the entire point of what I was writing, I was curious as to what other people thought about nationalisim/patriotisim. What does it mean to you? What defines it, as far as actions go?

You. Kick. Ass.

As for my idea, patriotism is supporting what is good about your country and trying to correct what is bad. Flags, anthems and such symbols mean nothing to me.

<img src=“http://www.rpgclassics.com/staff/tenchimaru/td.gif”> Whatever it is, legalised drugs and prostitution kinda turn me away from it.

Pretty much what you mentionned. Congrats.

My patriotism is patriotism not to the people who run the country, as it seems your teachers was, but toward the country itself, the contstition. Whenever i see something being done by the president that i dont know if i support, i just check the constitution. It isnt his country, and it isnt the congress’ either, so as long as we are both living in the same country, lets follow the same rules. Thus why i oppose such polices as the ANWR drilling, war in iraq, patriot act, embargo on cuba, and others. all of these defy the constition in one way or another, most blatenly being the patriot act (lvl that government controls our lives) and the war in iraq (let me count the ways this is unconstitutional…)

I also got in “trouble” this year when i handed in a paper on the book “darkness at noon” in which i suggested that no matter the form government takes [facism/democracy/theology] corruption from the inside will be its downfall in the end…i just wish i had the courage you did to stand up for myself…

Flags, anthems and such symbols mean nothing to me.

I guess because i grew up in a Military family where I was required to “sir” my father after anything said, the flag means a great deal to me.

I will always stand for the flag and will always show it due respect. I do however, respect the right to stand or not stand, pledge or not pledge, pray or not pray, etc. etc. as it is that very freedom which makes this country great.

Based on my brief encounters with patriotism, it seems to have something to do with sweating and farting into the flag.

It should be needless to say, but I am very anti-patriotic. If am I going to wave a flag, it’ll be the flag of the United Nations. Go Kofi Annan!

Nationalism and patriotism are two different things. Patriotism is just devotion to one’s country or homeland, such that one wishes to improve it or correct problems with it if that is necessary, and help it if it is in trouble. Nationalism is, more often than not, a messianic cult of identity built around adulation of some kind of symbolism associated with a state.

Jakanden: when I see flags and people singing anthems, I show my respect and such things. But they are to me what a statue of Jesus is to a christain. They will pray facing it, but that thing is not Jesus.

I’m saying this because some people just worship the object (flag kissers) instead of supporting the idea behind it.

Just talked to my mom, and found the policy on the internet. To quote:

“Students not participating in the recitation of the Pledge may stand and refrain from reciting the Pledge, or reamin seated.”

I win.

Originally posted by Tenchimaru Draconis
<img src=“http://www.rpgclassics.com/staff/tenchimaru/td.gif”> Whatever it is, legalised drugs and prostitution kinda turn me away from it.

Why’s that? Holland isn’t exactly doing bad because of that.

Hmm… nationalism and patriotisim… I think Canada’s a good country, but I wouldn’t say it’s the best.

Sorc, you are my hero.

No, really.

Same thing happened to me today, totally independent of my reading this.

Good on yer. I’m glad teachers like that can be properly put in their place. Not everyone has the heart to show their"support" and apparently those who don’t want to have the knowledge to say why.

And if I don’t make sense it’s because I have no clue what today is. An American thing perhaps? We didn’t do any moment of silence…but then again every school day we have to rise for the Canadian National Anthem before beginning the day’s work…

A moment of silence is a Constitutionally allowed moment that state legislatures can require schools to honor in which time students may reflect, silently, on whatever they wish, whether it be groceries list, attaining Nirvana, silent prayer, or thinking “Boy does this suck.” The only catch to moments of silence is that when passing the bill state legislatures cannot say anything about this getting prayer back in school. Basically, it’s a way to get around prayer in school as long as when debating and wording the bill the legislatures don’t mention religion.

The flag itself is a piece of cloth. Nothing more. It’s when the person imagines that it means something that it has meaning. For example, an American-loving person would see the American flag as a sign of something positive, such as freedom and all that other stuff, while an anti-American person would see it as the sign of evil and oppression.

Sorc, you handled that well. But don’t let that victory get to your head. It’ll give you power, which will turn you into a corrupt bastard that has to be gunned down mercilessly. Just a fact of life.

I stopped standing for the pledge freshman year. I’ve gotten plenty of comments about it.
Nicely done, sorc ^^

Originally posted by Sephiroth Katana
Nationalism and patriotism are two different things. Patriotism is just devotion to one’s country or homeland, such that one wishes to improve it or correct problems with it if that is necessary, and help it if it is in trouble. Nationalism is, more often than not, a messianic cult of identity built around adulation of some kind of symbolism associated with a state.

Are you sure you know exactly what you’re talking about? I’ve never heard messianic used in that context before. I may agree, but from what I know, nationalism is essentially hyper-patriotism, for example: a nationalist is the type of person who would ask “Why do you hate America?” if you said Bush was a horrible president. Also, a step further than nationalism is jingoism, if any of you ever happen to come across that word.

Anyway, my stance on patriotism is that you love your country and want what’s best for it, but the leaders are not infallible. The flag is a symbol to be respected, and your treatment of it shows how you feel about the country as a whole. People who stick miniature flags all over their vehicle are nationalists who don’t really think about what they’re doing. Proper care of a flag shows respect for the country.

“Messianic” can mean “marked by idealism and an aggressive crusading spirit,” which is a staple of nationalistic ideologies. This attitude is generally heavily associated with some kind of symbol of the state, like a flag or a portrait, resulting in the view that the state can do no wrong.

Originally posted by d Galloway
[b]The flag itself is a piece of cloth. Nothing more. It’s when the person imagines that it means something that it has meaning. For example, an American-loving person would see the American flag as a sign of something positive, such as freedom and all that other stuff, while an anti-American person would see it as the sign of evil and oppression.

Sorc, you handled that well. But don’t let that victory get to your head. It’ll give you power, which will turn you into a corrupt bastard that has to be gunned down mercilessly. Just a fact of life. [/b]

It is mroe than just a piece of cloth. It represents our country. By respecting it, you are respecting our country. It doesn’t matter who is leading the country, you should still have pride in your country despite the leadership. In the Marine Corps some of the higher ranks are bad at their job and shouldn’t really have that rank, however, there are some good ones too. Either way, you respect that rank since it has meaning. By disrepecting the flag, it is like saying “Screw you America, you suck.” Just because you may not like opur president and what he is doing, it doens’t mean that you have to loose faith in America. In fact, most of the guys I know in the military hate Bush and want him out, even when he was elected, most service members voted for Gore (I heard this from friends in the military since I wasn’t in at the time). However, it doesn’t change anyone’s desire to serve. Standing for the flag is just a way of showing that you care about the country. Those that served in Iraq may not have really liked the war or the reason, but still like America and take pride in being America. For your second reason, as I have said it isn’t about the action itself, it is about what the action means. On base, when the flag is raised and lowered, everything stops outside. If you are driving, you pull over, if you are in uniform, your stop and salute, if you are outside not in uniform you stand at attention. Sure it is a bit annoying and an very old tradition, but it is about showing respect for the country that we all fight for and love. In fact, when I hear the music and see the flag going up, it sometimes takes my breath away now and makes me happy inside. However, as I said, I’m not a big fan of everything stopping. Like all of those people who put little flags and stuf fon their cars after 9/11, it may not be the most practical way or anything, but at least their hearts were in the right place. My mom, she never learned of all of the traditions, however the flag means much more to her since she thinks of the guys fighting the wars and does the stuff to support them. Having the support of the nation helps troops moral tremendously and the pledge of alllegiance actually does that a bit. Believe me, my mom hates this war and Bush pretty much as much as anyone can hate them too.

The flag is nevertheless merely a representation, not the country itself. One may choose to respect one’s country in a different manner other than the one subscribed by some person hundreds of years ago. Not standing up during a flag raising or whatever does not necessarily mean disrespect towards the country, as shown by Sorc’s case. He did not say or in <b>any way</b> imply the words “Screw you America, you suck”. Sure, he may have been displeased with the actions of the leaders of the country, but he did not in any way do harm to the country. This is just like the with-us-or-against-us mindset. Furthermore, since it is written in a United States government document, it makes it perfectly okay.

Whether one is obligated to have pride in one’s country is an entirely different matter.