# Older Naruto
**URL:** https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531
**Category:** The Anime Forum
**Created:** [November 6, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531 "2005-11-06T22:00:36Z")
**Posts on this page:** 16
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Vorpy](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/Vorpy)
#### Post date: [November 11, 2005, 10:08pm UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/21 "2005-11-11T22:08:11Z")
So if they aren’t ninjas, what are they? Sorcerers I guess.
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### Author:  [@Fenril\_Knight](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/Fenril_Knight)
#### Post date: [November 11, 2005, 11:45pm UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/22 "2005-11-11T23:45:13Z")
The ANBUs in Naruto are pretty ninja-esque I believe. Just out of curiosity, what are the traits that a real ninja have that they don’t in Naruto?
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### Author:  [@Seraphim\_Ephyon](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/Seraphim_Ephyon)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2005, 7:00am UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/23 "2005-11-12T07:00:10Z")
> [@Arac](#):
>
> Again, since it didn’t seem to sink in any of the other times I’ve said it: I’m not complaining about the lack of realism. It’s not a bad thing, I honestly don’t care one way or the other if it’s realistic. I’m just making the point that it is not, for better or for worse. You and Pierson act as if my sole reason for disliking the show is its lack of realism and by pointing out that it wasn’t meant to be realistic, my opinions thus have no meaning, since you can misinterperet a point and argue against it, thereby proving the original argument wrong.
>
> I am arguing on whether or not the show is realistic, and you and Pie are making arguments for whether or not its realism or lack thereof is a good or bad thing.
The show is not realistic. Bravo, you win. You really needed someone to say they agreed with you on that? Who the HELL would argue that? I mean, seriously, anyone who thinks Naruto is loyal portrayal of reality needs a good kick on the balls. There’s a pretty big breach between the characters using real ninja techniques and the show being realistic. Son-motherfucking-Goku was a Kenpoka but who the hell would argue that Dragon Ball was realistic?
> [@Arac](#):
>
> So, really, I’m wondering what exactly makes the fact that I’m mearly arguing whether or not it’s realistic
THIS:
> [@Arac](#):
>
> My only point is that they weren’t very ninja-esque, at all.
AND THIS (Which I guess is irony):
> [@Arac](#):
>
> Yes, they’re damned stealthy, use some things close to realistic techniques, and of course, dress as conspicuously as we all know ninja did. Because they mostly do espionage and use poisons for assassinations; why, Naruto must have at least zero assassinations using ‘Spanish Fly’ to errode a victim’s heart and bowell tract. Real authentic.
Did I just go insane or something? Someone tell me, because I think I’m reading this correctly. Even if this wasn’t your point, you sure as hell made it look like it was.
> [@Arac](#):
>
> while you’re arguing whether or not that is a good thing
No, I’m not arguing that the lack of realism is good, I’m arguing that it’s irrelevant for this case.
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### Author:  [@Arac](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/Arac)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2005, 9:22am UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/24 "2005-11-12T09:22:12Z")
> [@Seraphim\_Ephyon](#):
>
> The show is not realistic. Bravo, you win. You really needed someone to say they agreed with you on that? Who the HELL would argue that? I mean, seriously, anyone who thinks Naruto is loyal portrayal of reality needs a good kick on the balls. There’s a pretty big breach between the characters using real ninja techniques and the show being realistic. Son-motherfucking-Goku was a Kenpoka but who the hell would argue that Dragon Ball was realistic?
No, I didn’t need some to agree with me. I also, however, didn’t want someone attacking an quantative argument (whether or not it was realistic) with a qualatative one (whether or not realism mattered).
> [@Seraphim\_Ephyon](#):
>
> THIS:
> [@Arac](#):
>
> My only point is that they weren’t very ninja-esque, at all. The well-written point, as I made clear when I said ‘I didn’t continue to argue the writing or characterization’ (or something like that), was a seperate point. My argument about realism was against him saying they were ninja.
Read the entire quote, Seraphim. This is what I meant about out of context quotation.
> [@Seraphim\_Ephyon](#):
>
> Did I just go insane or something? Someone tell me, because I think I’m reading this correctly. Even if this wasn’t your point, you sure as hell made it look like it was.
Find one place in there where I said the lack of authenticity was a bad thing. You can’t. Because I didn’t. I sarcasticly pointed out that it wasn’t there. In the next post down, I even clarified that it was a seperate point from the well written one, and I was arguing it as a matter of fact, not as one of opinion. Also, even if this did seem like I was making that my point, there were three more posts after it, before my last one, that should have given you a clue you might not’ve been taking it in the way it was intended; you know, by the way they directly said that that wasn’t the way it was meant to be taken.
> [@Seraphim\_Ephyon](#):
>
> No, I’m not arguing that the lack of realism is good, I’m arguing that it’s irrelevant for this case.
Fair enough, but your argument is still qualatative while mine is quantative. You argue for the relevancy or quality of a trait, I’m only arguing if it’s there. I am arguing as to whether or not a man has skin, and you are arguing that it’s colour doesn’t matter.
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### Author:  [@Seraphim\_Ephyon](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/Seraphim_Ephyon)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2005, 10:02am UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/25 "2005-11-12T10:02:02Z")
> [@Arac](#):
>
> Read the entire quote, Seraphim. This is what I meant about out of context quotation.
What the hell are you talking about? It reads clearly as the day that you are arguing that they are not ninja-like at all. What out of context? I need a second opinion here before I go nuts.
> [@Arac](#):
>
> Fair enough, but your argument is still qualatative while mine is quantative. You argue for the relevancy or quality of a trait, I’m only arguing if it’s there. I am arguing as to whether or not a man has skin, and you are arguing that it’s colour doesn’t matter.
This was the problem see: You are statement (Because it’s not an argument, as no one challenged that) is incredibly retarded. There is NO ONE who could possibly take Naruto for a fully loyal portrayal of Ninja culture. Yes they are Ninjas because the story puts them as that, OF COURSE they are not REAL ninjas. I just didn’t think anyone would waste time in stating something so goddamn obvious. My bad.
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### Author:  [@Vorpy](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/Vorpy)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2005, 10:03am UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/26 "2005-11-12T10:03:23Z")
Arac’s new rhetoric is unstoppable! Run for your lives!!!
It is perfectly valid to argue that quality A does not matter in response to a claim that something is bad because it possesses quality A. (replace “quality A” with “characters who are said to be ninjas but do not match the factual history of ninjas but rather embody purely the most mythical attributes of ninjas”).
I don’t know where this “qualitative vs quantitative” thing is coming from; I do not believe these words mean what you think they mean. Quantitative facts deals with quantities and measurements. The claim that the characters are not ninjas is not quantitative. It is qualitative, because the qualities that make them ninjas are being disputed.
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### Author:  [@Arac](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/Arac)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2005, 11:06am UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/27 "2005-11-12T11:06:21Z")
Yes, Seraphim, it does indeed say I’m arguing that they are not ninja-like at all. What it does not say is that them not being ninja like is a good or bad thing. It just argues that they aren’t. What you cannot seem to comprehend is that I’m not passing judgement on the show based on whether or not they’re realistic. I have plainly said I’m arguing that they aren’t realistic, and doing so seperately from arguing my opinions based upon the show. In simple words that can be easily defined as exactly what I mean.
Seraphim, if Ren hadn’t argued that they were ninja, which to me means real or at least realistic ninja (if I had a story with all female characters and I refered to them with the ‘he’ pronoun, it wouldn’t make them male) , I wouldn’t have argued it. Also, I really don’t think insulting my intelligence when I make a point as simple as I can, phrased in as many ways as I can, and it still seems to go well over your head, is a good idea. I’m not that poor at communication. You either simply cannot understand my mostly monosyllabic words or you refuse to actually use them as what they mean for some reason.
EDIT: Actually, if you read the boards in Spanish, it could well be a translation issue. Either way, I would hope it’s still fairly plain what I meant. If it really seems like I’m saying it’s bad because of the lack of ninja realism, I’m sorry.
Vorpy, you’re wrong. Quantative is a measurement of definable, factual amounts; i.e. inches, transparency levels, et ceteras. Qualatative measurements measure things that require judgements based upon perspective or opinion; stating ice cream is cold is qualatative, as is stating that ice cream tastes good.
Quantative measurements also function in reference to whether something is something or is not, in some instances; for example, stating whether or not a chemical is an acid is considered a quantative measurement, because it is based upon fact, and technically measure the quantity of something (pH, in this case).
Thus, the statement of whether or not someone is a ninja, when based on factual records of what is a ninja, is a quantative measurement until someone else makes it qualatative. If, for example, one lacks all traits of a ninja, or at least most all of them, you may quantify them as having few or no traits specific to a ninja, and thus, logically, as not a ninja, since they (through their quantity of traits) do not fit the definition of a ninja.
If someone challenged the used definition of ninja, then judgement is required, and the measure becomes qualatative. For example, if I were to keep arguing with Fenris, it would change into a qualatative argument.
Arguing whether something is, or is not, another thing, based upon established definition and fact, however, is still quantative. Stating whether a pencil is or is not made out of plastic, for example, is a quantative measurement, it may be measured in exacts by the definitions of plastic, until someone chooses to challenge what plastic, or what a pencil, is.
In other words, it would be a qualitative issue if I disputed what qualities made them ninja or not ninja. Since I am argue on whether or not they have pre-established qualities, it is quantative.
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### Author:  [@Seraphim\_Ephyon](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/Seraphim_Ephyon)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2005, 11:19am UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/28 "2005-11-12T11:19:19Z")
> [@Arac](#):
>
> Yes, Seraphim, it does indeed say I’m arguing that they are not ninja-like at all. What it does not say is that them not being ninja like is a good or bad thing. It just argues that they aren’t.
Which 1)I already understood. 2)Is still a pretty darn stupid thing to argue about.
> [@Arac](#):
>
> Seraphim, if Ren hadn’t argued that they were ninja, which to me means real or at least realistic ninja. I wouldn’t have argued it.
Ren did not say they were realistic. Nobody here said they were realistic. They are ninja just like Inspector Gadget is a police detective. Now you could argue that Gadget is not fit for his job and that the little girl should get more credit and be sent to some genius school instead of wasting her youth babysitting him, but Gadget is still gonna be a detective because that’s his character. Same deal with Naruto.
And I have enough faith in Ren’s (And Fenril’s) sanity to assure that neither one thinks Naruto is realistic.
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### Author:  [@Arac](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/Arac)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2005, 11:27am UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/29 "2005-11-12T11:27:27Z")
Eh. When I say wannabe ninja, and Ren argues that they are ninja, that to me implies he means they’re real ninja. Which isn’t really illogical to infer, considering that if they are ninja, and not wannabe/fake/feux ninja, that basically means they’re real ninja. So I pointed out they weren’t ninja-esque, sarcasticly and half-jokingly, and Pie took it and acted like I had said it was my reason for disliking the show. Then you decided to run with what Pie had said, continuing of his reasoning that I was using that as a judgement on the show.
In other words, I would’ve made one post about realism if you guys hadn’t acted like I was basing my philosophy of artistic value in general entirely upon it. So if you hadn’t misinterpreted what I clearly stated wasn’t a value judgement, there really would’ve been no argument at all.
Either way, it’s really a misunderstanding, and we should probably stop debating it, since it hasn’t anything to do with this thread. Sorry, Ren.
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### Author:  [@Seraphim\_Ephyon](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/Seraphim_Ephyon)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2005, 11:35am UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/30 "2005-11-12T11:35:45Z")
> [@Arac](#):
>
> Eh. When I say wannabe ninja, and Ren argues that they are ninja, that to me implies he means they’re real ninja. Which isn’t really illogical to infer, considering that if they are ninja, and not wannabe/fake/feux ninja, that basically means they’re real ninja.
There are three definitions here:
Realistic Ninja
Fantasy ninja
Wannabe Ninja
Naruto and co. are not wannabes. A wannabe is someone who tried to act like someone/something else and is generally regarded as a pathetic copy. Naruto is an Unrealistic/Fantasy ninja. Big difference.
> [@Arac](#):
>
> So I pointed out they weren’t ninja-esque, sarcasticly and half-jokingly, and Pie took it and acted like I had said it was my reason for disliking the show. Then you decided to run with what Pie had said, continuing of his reasoning that I was using that as a judgement on the show.
> In other words, I would’ve made one post about realism if you guys hadn’t acted like I was basing my philosophy of artistic value in general entirely upon it. So if you hadn’t misinterpreted what I clearly stated wasn’t a value judgement, there really would’ve been no argument at all.
> Either way, it’s really a misunderstanding, and we should probably stop debating it, since it hasn’t anything to do with this thread. Sorry, Ren.
I’m going to use the same argument I used with Hades a while ago (Ironically, while defending you): If we all interpret something in a way that was not intended, it’s much more likely that you didn’t express yourself properly than us being collectively idotic.
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### Author:  [@BlueMageOne](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/BlueMageOne)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/31 "2005-11-12T14:47:07Z")
Naruto has a fox inside of him, that’s silly.
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### Author:  [@demigod](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/demigod)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/32 "2005-11-12T17:28:01Z")
Tsunade summons a giant slug. That’s silly. Ooooh, a slug! How scary! A giant frog I can accept, but a giant slug? Heck, a giant ant would have been better.
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### Author:  [@Ren](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/Ren)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/33 "2005-11-12T23:23:12Z")
You guys can go to hell for all I care about this silly talk. I can’t believe people can debate so much about Naruto being or not about ninjas.
By the way, back to the characters, if Sai isn’t a girl, then the mangá is going to become too queer to be readable from now on.
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### Author:  [@Fenril\_Knight](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/Fenril_Knight)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/34 "2005-11-13T00:09:49Z")
Sai’s a guy…
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### Author:  [@Ren](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/Ren)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/35 "2005-11-13T00:23:53Z")
Just how do you know?
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### Author:  [@Fenril\_Knight](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/u/Fenril_Knight)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2005, 9:46am UTC](https://discourse.rpgclassics.com/t/older-naruto/15531/36 "2005-11-13T09:46:39Z")
I read the scanlation of chapt 283. Plus Sai’s a guy’s name… or so I heard.
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