No Obama thread?

It’s typical American rhetoric, actually. The following is from JFK’s inaugural.

Freedom:

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

To those new states whom we welcome to the ranks of the free, we pledge our word that one form of colonial control shall not have passed away merely to be replaced by a far more iron tyranny. We shall not always expect to find them supporting our view. But we shall always hope to find them strongly supporting their own freedom

In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility

My fellow citizens of the world, ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.

God:

For I have sworn before you and Almighty God the same solemn oath our forebears prescribed nearly a century and three-quarters ago.

And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe – the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God.

To those old allies whose cultural and spiritual origins we share, we pledge the loyalty of faithful friends

Let both sides unite to heed, in all corners of the earth, the command of Isaiah – to “undo the heavy burdens, and [to] let the oppressed go free.”

“rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation,” [ed. Romans]

let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.

There is a disturbing lack of apple pie though. Mmm, apple pie.

Yeah, but isn’t Obama supposed to be the “change” candidate?

Only compared to the opposition. Voters and the political climate define who can have a shot at the presidency and you have to be mostly middle of the road if you want to become president. As a superpower, freedom is a great excuse to have a global presence and the “correct” interventionism is probably still acceptable in the U.S. -the state of the economy is issue no.1, but no one really complained when Obama said in the debates he may enter Pakistan to hunt Al Qaeda. There are also the plans to transfer 30.000 soldiers to Afghanistan.

As for God, he’s a mainstay in U.S. politics. Surveys show that about 50-60% -I was reading this by chance in about.com today- wouldn’t vote for an atheist president and Obama, naturally, has been emphasizing his Christian faith during the whole campaign. Seems even Baptist or Mormon isn’t the right kind* of Christian for some voters. Identity politics (“real Americans”, abortions) probably don’t help.

Third-party candidates didn’t really have much chance, Ron Paul would dismantle and try reestablishing American economic & foreign policy and didn’t do great outside the internet and Kucinich, the only Democrat who seemed to have socialist policies, stayed mostly in the single digits (and saw UFOs).

Obama has the advantage of being compared to Bush, so when he doesn’t openly support torture, he immediately looks doubleplusgood. This isn’t any great standard, but one probably gets what one can.

Ah well, thanks to the financial crisis change is definitely coming no matter what Obama’s rhetoric. He’s gonna have no choice but to implement a liberal program of massive government spending, just to keep the economy afloat.

It’s expected that the bill is going to be voted on tomorrow. The Democrats are ramming this thing down pretty quickly. Turn on C-SPAN 2 if you want to see it; now that it’s on the Senate Finance Committee, it’s been a bit more of an open process. Back when Obey was in charge he was pretty quick to whip anyone trying to amend the legislation - Baucus seems to be acting somewhat fairly…or at least giving the impression of doing so.

Obama is setting us up for a fall as well; he went to Capitol Hill and spoke to Boehner and GOP leaders in order to get support for the legislation. If we vote for this, fiscal conservatives will have a field day. If we don’t vote for it and it fails, we assert our conservative values but at the cost of seeming reactionary without having a clear and concise alternative.

It should be made clear that there are some real concerns with this bill; there needs to be clear and powerful oversight mechanisms and we need to make sure that these infrastructure projects are not only shovel-ready so the investment can be expected to return its dividends quickly enough to actually fix the economy.

A liberal spending plan is great; if it’s effective - I don’t think pushing this thing so quickly helps ensure that it’s going to be effective. We pushed the the TARP Plan quickly and see how that worked out for us. This mass of deficit spending, as outlined by Robert Sunshine, is unsustainable and it will have consequences.

Listening to republicans complain about this economic plan is a fucking riot after the stupid bullshit which turned out their economic stimulus to provide money to banks but not attaching any strings to it, like LENDING THE FUCKING MONEY instead of buying their competitors. I don’t see anyone saying anything about that. Where the fuck were you when the Bush administration went further into deficit spending than all previous administrations combined?

Sin. Plenty of people are speaking about that. Take a look at the votes for the apportionment of the remaining TARP funds - people who voted for the bailout, on both Democratic and Republican aisles realize the failure in how the first 350 billion dollars were spent. The public’s rancor about the bailout on both sides cannot be underestimated.

I remember where I was when the TARP bill was passed; in the same political position I’m in now - action must be taken, that much is certain, but after the failure of the first half of the TARP program it’s become increasingly clear that we have to be even more careful in our apportionment of the program. The TARP legislation was a unified front - it was supported by both Democrats and Republicans - the failure cuts both ways.

In all actuality, I don’t see where I disagree with you here - although I’m a little confused about one thing. The American government did both - it bought whole companies (as a matter of fact, the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac buy-out was one major reason for the large amount of deficit sending in the 2008 budget) and lent money obviously. Really, the major problem is just the fact that we don’t know where the money went - the absent of oversight was the major failure and one of the reasons for that is because of how quickly the TARP bill was rammed through Congress.

The Federal Government is running out of options - we need this to work. Pushing this through so early is a double-edged sword. Obama is capitalizing on his honeymoon period, but how could oversight be implemented and the removal of earmarks be possible if it’s done on such a short timeline. It’s been seven days since Obama is inaugurated - we thought the TARP bill was done too quickly? The Congress is operating like it’s Quickdraw McGraw - but you can’t shoot from the hip when the target is this important or when you’re dealing with such a massive project.

That’s not Obama setting you up for the fall. That’s the cost of having elected representatives: they have to take actions and face the consequences. As for the “fiscal conservatives”, they’ve been insignificant for the last 8 years.

Btw does the adjective in “a liberal spending plan” come from liberalism or from spending at liberty?

Seeing billions go towards improving the abysmal American educational system is a long term and valuable investment in the future of the country, something too many have forgotten all too quicky. These are the kinds of investments that need to be made at a time like this, to improve the workforce and sustain American technological dominance. Countries like China and India realized this and are rapidly catching up. To me this kind of spending plan is a whole lot better than giving free money to the banks responsible for the mess we’re in.

Exactly why I left, but now I’m stuck in Ohio, which is Anti- anything that isn’t white. Fortunately, I work for a company that stresses hiring minority candidates for jobs.

And as for the inauguration speech, I did not watch it as I was stuck at work, but it’s gonna take a long time for us to get out of the mess that the banks and fiscal conservatives have put us in. I hope that Obama can at least get us in the right path while he’s in office.

I concur.

I live in Texas - trust me when I say that I’m aware that racism isn’t something that ends with black and white racial problems. You can’t live here without becoming aware anti-Hispanic undertones.

You’re absolutely right that the state of the American educational system is not where it needs to be and we need to do better. We need to invest in our education system in order to maintain our competitiveness on the world stage. William Bennet’s report on education made it clear that if we don’t improve out system, our nation’s decline will be assured.

…But that has nothing to do with a stimulus package that is meant to give an immediate boost to our economy. I don’t object to the purpose of the Amendment of 150 billion dollars being given to the educational sector but I do question it’s relevance in a bill that was designed to be an immediate answer to the financial crisis.

Obama’s used his campaign rhetoric to claim that this legislation would rebuild our infrastructure and create jobs by doing so. That makes sense and it seems like it would be effective if it would be used to target shovel-ready projects that Obama was talking about.

Only 10 percent of this bill was dedicated to infrastructure building. That’s it.

Spending is not the same stimulating. If you’re mad about the TARP funding and Bush’s overspending, fine. I’m not going to fault you for that - but you should take it as a lesson instead of using it as just another talking point against Bush - who’s living his days peacefully in Dallas now and repudiating him isn’t going to help us solve this problem if you lose sight of the fact that Democrats can spend just as much money as the Republicans. We need to be skeptial of both tribes rather than just throwing it all on one side.

825 billion dollars is a lot of money and it needs oversight. But this is TARP II; I haven’t heard anyone articulating a true oversight and accountability structure that has already been put in place to disperse these funds. We saw what happens when we go in blind without a committee already set up for oversight last Fall; but since the Democrats are doing it and Obama is enjoying his honeymoon period, no one is saying anything.

This bill is going to pass - it got through the House without any Republican support and the Senate is alot more favorable to the bill then the House was. I’ll pray that this wil work despite my belief that the bill has become a bloated earmark for the most part - it just seems like we’re throwing more money at the problem in haste out of anxiety.

If you can explain to me when else it would have a chance to pass, I’m all ears.

an immediate answer to the financial crisis.

Haha. An immediate answer to a financial crisis, good one. You almost had me thinking you thought this was possible.

The only solution to this problem is long term.

And Cavelcade is right. If anyone thinks we’re getting out of this quickly or easily, they clearly don’t understand the situation we’re in.

THIS IS AN OBAMANATION!!!

You’re arguing in deceptive half-truths, like Rush Limbaugh. True, the section of the bill titled “Infrastructure” lists $90 billion of investments. That’s your “10%” of $900b. Let’s leave aside that the bill is actually for an $819b stimulus, and that the $81b that’s predicted to make this a $900b stimulus will include commensurately more infrastructure spending. You’re ignoring that 1) <i>most</i> of the bill is infrastructure spending only under other headings than “Infrastructure,” and 2) the non-infrastructure spending will stimulate the economy in other ways, <i>including ways that Republicans endorse</i>.

First, there’s $31b to modernize public structures & maximize energy cost savings, $30b for highway construction, $19b on environmental restoration & $10b on mass transit. These fall under the “Infrastructure” heading.

Then, there’s the “Energy” heading. This has $32b for an electric smart grid, $20b for renewable energy tax cuts, & $6b for weatherizing modest income homes. The electric grid is infrastructure, and weatherizing homes is a long-term investment. The renewable energy tax cuts create tax incentives for our infrastructure to develop in an environmentally sustainable way for the next couple decades.

There’s $141.6b for education. Obama has actually referred to education as “infrastructure,” because 1) schools themselves are infrastructure, and 2) in a deeper sense, so is our network of teachers and the teaching methodologies they exchange with one another. Regardless, as Sinistral pointed out, education is a long-term investment that will pay off. It complements a short-term stimulus.

Here’s what you’ve been waiting for: $112.1b on health care. I won’t belabor that this amounts to a redistribution from higher-bracket tax payers to low-income families, and that that in itself might stimulate spending. I’ll only note passingly that $20b of that is spent on health information technology, which requires infrastructure.

The other much-maligned provision: $102b for welfare&unemployment. This is another redistribution, and I’ll ignore that it’s arguably an indirect stimulus. But note that job training is part of the $102b, and that portion clearly stimulates the economy.

What’s really shameful for a Republican to ignore is the $275b tax cut. This is $500 per individual, a $7.5k credit for first-time home owners, & a $2.5k credit for higher ed. It’s designed to stimulate low-level consumer spending (the $500), which will in fact “trickle up.” It stimulates the housing market, which could certainly use a boost. It creates more incentives to go to college, which is a good long-term investment for the nation.

In the end, between 4/5 and 9/10 of the spending is on 1) immediate stimulus, or 2) long-term investments to complement the stimulus. You may believe there are more effective ways to achieve a stimulus, e.g. $900b of high-bracket tax cuts, but that’s not the debate anymore. As Obama noted, “I won,” and this bill is entirely in line with what he promised to do. Let democracy play out.

I find it interesting that right after you call it a deceptive half-truth, you basically validate the assertion. It was declared to be an immediate stimulus towards building the infrastructure of the country and yet only ten percent of it going to the shovel-ready projects that can do the most good as quickly as possible.

If you want spending that complements the stimulus, that’s fine; give it time to be thoroughly vetted. Don’t piggyback it onto legislation that’s meant to give the economy the footing it needs right now.

But I’m resigned to the fact that I’m a conservative and you’re not. The medium of the internet is not known for uniting people of differing political opinions on to common ground - so let’s just look at something that’s a bit more objective; history.

FDR knew how to unite the people. He knew how to reach out to Republicans and he understood what Sinistral and Cavelcade and you don’t seem to care about - politicains of either party don’t like it when you piggyback spending on a bill, especially when it’s done so quickly that it doesn’t give politicians the ability to become acquainted with the legislation.

When we were engulfed in the Great Depression, FDR had a bill that passed unanimously through the Congress in a span of six hours - he was able to do that not just because “he had won” the election but because he understood that he needed to make this legislation as focused on an immediate reaction to the economy as possible. The next bill he brought through was a thorough concession to the Republicans on the issue of tax cuts, and from then on, the issue of partisanship was hardly something FDR had to worry about during his first 100 days.

Instead, Obama tried to pull an omnibus of legislation that we don’t know will work (just like TARP), that was rushed through (just like TARP), and doesn’t have a pre-established committee to watch it’s progress and moderate where the money goes (just like TARP).

Ah, that’s another thing FDR did; he had a very efficient and disciplined infrastrucutre for governing his legislation and stimulus - that’s a lot more effective than just putting it on the internet.

Those people that are going to be talking about how this was a direct insult to Obama or something like that have not been aware of the House deliberations and the distinct tone of the Democrats in a great deal of those proceedings. Obama may be trying to focus on unity but the Democrats are not. It’s an antagonistic environment - Obey, Pelosi, and a great deal of the other Democrats in the chamber have chided nearly every amendment that the Republicans question or to try to add to the legislation. I’m well aware of the fact that you will find that to be laudable, but you can’t expect that to cause unity to form in the chamber.

Either way, this could fail as badly as TARP did, or it could work wonders on the economy. I hope it helps, but while I agree with the bill in principle, I’m disheartened by how the Democrats in the Congress have maligned the very clear message of immediate action that Obama has been articulating.

Oh, and I love this.

If you can explain to me when else it would have a chance to pass, I’m all ears.

This is the kind of thinking that results in earmarks being amended into legislation that they have no business being put into. This is the kind of thinking that fuels wasteful spending in the Congress. This is the kind of thinking that abuses the legislative process and distorts it’s purpose.

You don’t amend an agenda, even a principled and effective one, into legislation just because the political climate makes your party capable of doing so. The entire purpose of the Congress is to be a deliberative body, because one legislation gets passed, and once money starts flowing, its incredibly difficult to rewind the clock. A massive infusion into the education sector is admirable, but Congressional members are entitled to take the time to view it, understand it, set up iron-clad controls over how the money will be moderated and diffused. Congress didn’t get that. Instead it was ram-rodded through because it’s good.

Yeah, we know it’s good. The House Republicans weren’t angry because they hate education or whatever partisan perspective some Democrats might believe, they were angry because they saw it a piggyback amendment that had not been thoroughly vetted and scrutinized and amounted to more spending that we can’t afford.

Go back into the archives and see how much time it takes for the Omnibus bills to be passed - it takes a lot of time and a great deal of deliberative consideration before it’s finally passed. That’s because it’s a massive spending bill and the Congress’s job is to make sure that those funds are being appropriated efficiently right out of the gate. They make sure there’s a pathway, a route for that money that’s already secure before the President’s pen approves it. That didn’t happen with this bill.

That’s not democracy playing out Xwing; that’s inefficient government. Mark my words; there was a time when the Republicans had the same attitude concerning the opposition as you do. There was a time, before I actually got excited about politics, when the conservatives could say, “we won” and be pompous enough to see that as the end of the debate. They paid for it and so will the Democrats if they choose to walk that same path. But it seems like you’re far removed from the bipartisanship your victorious candidate was so concerned with.

By the way, the Republicans didn’t ignore the tax cuts in the legislation. They realized that it was a concession to their principles; what they were upset about was how a great deal of the remaining money was appropriated.

Hi, I was talking about the education bump up. Would you like to take other things out of context to pull shit out of your ass? You also keep talking about immediate stimulus bill. Explain to us what could be done to immediately fix the economy. I really want to hear it. I want to hear about how you solved the problem that millions of Americans borrowed more money than they can now pay back.

There’s no reason to be rude. I wasn’t taking anything out of context. I was talking directly about the attitude that you were using to defend it’s addition to the legislation; the belief that since there’s no better time to do it, they might as well add it to the closest biggest spending bill they can find.

That’s not how government should work; these things take time, especially if it’s something as important as education. Avenues to appropriation of funds need to be clearly devised, the legislature should have the time necessary to discuss and moderate the legislation in order to make it better by adding some amendments or requesting for some erroneous parts to be fixed.

The thing is, Obama already articulated what I believe would be an immediate and effective stimulus pacakge; a focus on creating jobs through funding infrastructure projects and other programs that are shovel-ready and ready to begin right now. Of course, if you ask me, tax cuts should play an important role as well.

This package however, was not focused solely on those aspects. It was scattershot over multiple agendas that aren’t designed for short-term stimulation of the economy. It became a grab-bag for Congressional projects that weren’t throughly vetted and assured to be able to start up as soon as the legislation was passed. The best articulation of how foolhardy this would have been is the 200 million dollars that was going ot be appropriated to the National Mall - Democrats stated that the renovations would have helped create jobs, but since this is just a new project that the government just spun out of nowhere it would have taken time to set up a deal with the contractors, to begin setting up exactly how the renovations would be performed, etc.

That’s the very antithesis of what I’m talking about - it can take years for projects to really start coming together and there’s no point in throwing money at development like that when there are other options; like taking a step back, asking Governor’s and statesmen about what projects they have outlined and ready to go, investigating these projects and determining their usefulness and effectiveness in aiding a growth of jobs, and then deciding which ones should funded.

Honestly, my biggest problem with this legislation is that it’s being thrown out the door and expected to work when we just learned what happens when you don’t deliberate over such a large infusion of money. It’s not a

Once again, I’ll reiterate: the solution to this is not short term spending. In fact, I’m surprised with how much short term investment is being undertaken in this bill. It’s massive. That it is overshadowed by the other investment is immaterial, these are all necessary investments.

Also, while I’m not particularly impressed with a bill passing without any oversights or regulations, I disagree that “politics” is a reason to stop it passing, anymore than it should cause it to pass. If the opposition can’t convince the senate/house that it should be voted down, then that’s democracy.

Bipartisanship shouldn’t be an issue. If people disagree on an issue, they shouldn’t give in for the sake of appearing together. The point of the opposition is to oppose.

Politics is bullshit. I don’t know why I’m even arguing this.