I think the fact that it was a school, full of children, that was destroyed is pretty important, as well. I think the public feeling on the subject was that it was partially caused by the New Warriors’ careless handling of the situation, and the fact that they chose to battle a villain unnecessarily right near a school full of children.
It was passed pretty quickly and easily, so there was a decent amount of in-universe public support. If we consider the allegory to legislation like the Patriot Act that Civil War was trying to make, the extremely high approval rating of Bush and public support for measures like the Patriot Act immediately following 9/11 were the same way; as the 984 put it, anyone against the Patriot Act was dismissed as a crazy hippie for a while.
Actual vigilantes are arrested for doing just that in the real world, I see no reason why the comics universe would be any more lenient, especially in a story specifically about laws on vigilantism being more strict.
It seems like a lot of the things you said should happen (heroes trying to break their friends out of the prison, lawyers getting involved, Captain America talking to the media, villains trying to take advantage of the situation, an alien invasion) did happen.
Did they know they were near a school? In fact, in the comic Nitro runs from his hideout towards the school. Namorita tries to stop him before he gets there but then he “goes off” (and note, even if the heroes had intel about Nitro before the fight, the fact his powers had been boosted tremendously was unknown to anybody -except the Damage Control people). And let’s not forget that Nitro WAS going to blow up places intentionally so DC could benefit- if it didn’t happen in Stamford, it was going to happen elsewhere, perhaps even in a more populated area. Yet nowhere is this pointed out.)
It was passed pretty quickly and easily, so there was a decent amount of in-universe public support. If we consider the allegory to legislation like the Patriot Act that Civil War was trying to make, the extremely high approval rating of Bush and public support for measures like the Patriot Act immediately following 9/11 were the same way; as the 984 put it, anyone against the Patriot Act was dismissed as a crazy hippie for a while.
Oh, the Patriot Act parallels are intentional, no doubt. And I do not doubt that a lot of the public would support it- but certainly not EVERYBODY, particularly the (presumably) numerous people saved by heroes over the years. Yet in the whole event, I can only think of one story in which a civilian Anti-Reg demonstration took place (in Fantastic Four, and it devolved quickly into a clash of mobs). One of CW’s biggest criticisms was that it asked us (the fans) to choose a side, so we expected a better argument for both options, but we basically only got the Pro-Regs beating up on the Anti-Regs… and then declaring that “the right side won” despite the blatantly immoral acts they committed.
Actual vigilantes are arrested for doing just that in the real world, I see no reason why the comics universe would be any more lenient, especially in a story specifically about laws on vigilantism being more strict.
You’re missing my point. Can you imagine what would happen if, say, a man helped save several people from a burning building or a robbery… only to be then arrested for operating without a license? Technically correct, but morally controversial. I wanted to see at least something like that (or a Pro-Reg person “failing” to capture an Anti-Reg Hero, out of last-minute misgivings) to remind us of that not everyone had lost their morals or common sense all of a sudden.
It seems like a lot of the things you said should happen (heroes trying to break their friends out of the prison, lawyers getting involved, Captain America talking to the media, villains trying to take advantage of the situation, an alien invasion) did happen.
Not exactly. The ‘heroes trying to free the imprisoned ones’ wasn’t an impulsive thing done by heroes who failed to see the other side’s points; it was an actual rescue from what was effectively a gulag (by this point, even the fans agreed it was the right thing to do). The only lawyer involved was She-Hulk, and she was there mostly to “help” Speedball (which resulted only on his going crazy with guilt); Cap never got to talk to the media because the writer sicked SHIELD on him so he would become a leader of the resistance, but that would only happen if he had been truly convinced that the government had overstepped its bounds, which was NOT evident until later in the story; villains FAILED to take much advantage of things, and the alien invasion only came two years later (real time, about half a year in the comics) and it failed to improve things much (in fact, it ended with Osborn in power.)
I think the whole point is whether or not they are near a school is the sort of thing they should check and be careful about. There’s a good chance he wouldn’t have started running if he didn’t see a superhero team about to capture him. I think it’s pretty fair to argue that the way they handled it was at least somewhat negligent, which, the argument was made, is too negligent for people who can cause serious damage if they make a mistake.
I think the attempt was to show that public opinion was pretty strongly on registration’s side. Average Citizens didn’t really weigh in too many opinions, at all, and if most were for the registration side, I don’t see why we would see many civilians protesting against it. The two reporters in Frontline were supposed to kind of represent the Civilian arguments from each side. I really don’t remember many Pro-Registration arguments that weren’t from heroes or SHIELD/government people, either. People were shown to be on that side more often, but more people were.
I’m not missing the point, at all. I’m telling you that people who saved others from robberies have been arrested in the past. There’s a lot of moral to-do about vigilantism in fiction, but, usually, nobody cares that much in real life.
I guess I just don’t get why you’re being so critical about slight differences from what you claim you would have done. Also, I’m pretty sure Osborn coming to power counts as the villains taking advantage of the situation, just a little. The demand of wanting huge villain plots and alien invasions within a relatively brief crossover event is sort of ridiculous; they arose in the environment created by the event as appropriately large events. A full-scale invasion or a villainous plot getting resolved in half an issue or in a side book without most of the characters even being there wouldn’t exactly be ideal, either.
I agree there was a fumble on the Warriors’ part, although it seems more the fault of the producers of their TV show, who only revealed the IDs of the villains to them at the very last minute; also the kids were in hiding, and they were arguing whether to go ahead when one of the villains happened to spot them. And don’t forget, with or without them Nitro WAS going to blow up the town, or another one. Bad situation, but all in all, not the kind of event that I’d consider truly damning; a good investigation of the events (Consider: THE ENTIRE EVENT WAS RECORDED) could even have cleared them of much guilt. (Then again, exactly what did the audience see? We don’t know. The tape could have been altered by third parties to make them look guilty. That’s why I would use a live broadcast instead).
I think the attempt was to show that public opinion was pretty strongly on registration’s side. Average Citizens didn’t really weigh in too many opinions, at all, and if most were for the registration side, I don’t see why we would see many civilians protesting against it. The two reporters in Frontline were supposed to kind of represent the Civilian arguments from each side. I really don’t remember many Pro-Registration arguments that weren’t from heroes or SHIELD/government people, either. People were shown to be on that side more often, but more people were.
There were quite a few incidents showing the public as being on the “pro” side, including the (rather narmy) attempt by three rescue workers to stop Cap from beating up Iron Man (instead of, you know, doing their jobs of rescuing civilians.) But where were the equivalent, “Hey, we trust you guys” incidents? After over a decade (In Marvel time) of being saved nearly every week by the heroes, NOBODY even comes out to say, “I trust them?” This IS a big flaw in what was supposed to be a balanced argument, Arac.
I’m not missing the point, at all. I’m telling you that people who saved others from robberies have been arrested in the past. There’s a lot of moral to-do about vigilantism in fiction, but, usually, nobody cares that much in real life.
And I’m telling you, I just wanted to see some people on the pro-side show inner conflict over arresting people they KNEW where heroes. That’s my point.
I guess I just don’t get why you’re being so critical about slight differences from what you claim you would have done. Also, I’m pretty sure Osborn coming to power counts as the villains taking advantage of the situation, just a little. The demand of wanting huge villain plots and alien invasions within a relatively brief crossover event is sort of ridiculous; they arose in the environment created by the event as appropriately large events. A full-scale invasion or a villainous plot getting resolved in half an issue or in a side book without most of the characters even being there wouldn’t exactly be ideal, either.
Those were not “slight differences”, Arac, though I guess you’d need a deeper understanding of the Marvel Universe to see it. Oh, and I never asked for the invasions and such to happen ‘within Civil War’- but at least some kind of climatic event (other than the poorly thought out final battle between the heroes) needed to happen. Also, this being Marvel, you’d think Dr. Doom or something would’ve showed up at some point. But as I said earlier, I suspect the author was just too engaged in his moral tract to care.
I think the fact that there was a television crew there to begin with was something of a problem. A bunch of teenagers turned saving lives into a spectator sport to get rich/famous, basically. When something goes very wrong as a result of even slight negligence, to people who are hurt and afraid, that looks pretty irresponsible. However much of it was the producers fault, the heroes should never have agreed to let television producers manage and control the means in which they did their jobs.
Again, the general public was on the pro side. A few pockets probably weren’t, but the early protests against Bush’s actions were small, few, and got little media attention compared to all of the people rallying behind him. The number of people/characters arguing for each side isn’t what balances it, it’s the actual argument, and I’d contend that the actual arguments were fairly skewed in against registration. As you said, there were some grievous moral errors on the pro-registration side, and the anti-registration heroes had arguments a lot more convincing, in many ways, than “it’s dangerous not to.” There were both philosophical and practical problems with registration that I feel were addressed far more heavily than anything other than the practical advantages of registration, which seemed to be the only major talking point anyone on that side had. I agree that the debate part could have been handled a lot better, but I really don’t think showing faceless, nameless throwaway characters (or introducing characters entirely to make arguments within a specific storyline) spouting off rants about it would be the best way to fix it.
I think that does come out, several times, in the repeated offers to surrender and ask them to register before actual arrests. Otherwise, if they had reservations about arresting people who violated a law, they probably wouldn’t support that law.
They storyline is fundamentally about an ideological conflict within the superhero community, a climactic event other than a battle between themwouldn’t have made sense. Are you arguing for a more amicable ending, like in the “X vs. Y” comics of old, where the two heroes fought to a standstill until a new threat arrived for them to team up against? I feel like that’s been played out, for one thing, and it wouldn’t really be a workable solution, either; once Doctor Doom or whoever was defeated, the story would be right back where it started, with the heroes in conflict. I’m not saying the battle was well-executed (I wasn’t happy with the way Civil War turned out, either), but I think it was one of the few workable endings.
I think the fact that there was a television crew there to begin with was something of a problem. A bunch of teenagers turned saving lives into a spectator sport to get rich/famous, basically. When something goes very wrong as a result of even slight negligence, to people who are hurt and afraid, that looks pretty irresponsible. However much of it was the producers fault, the heroes should never have agreed to let television producers manage and control the means in which they did their jobs.
The “Reality Show” thing comes from the previous (failed) attempt to revive the New Warriors series; apparently someone thought that exploiting that fad would help sales. (Within the comics, it was explained that the Warriors had lost their funding, and were reduced to having their adventures taped for TV to make ends meet- however, they were genuinely trying to help, they weren’t in it for the money. It does look bad, though.)
…And that’s pretty much all I have to say. The rest is mostly your disagreeing with me more on details than facts. Eye of the Beholder and all that.
I think I’ll leave things there. I’ve already spent more time on this thread than I intended to… I’ve other stuff to work on, I need to focus on it. So, until my next thread, I’ll leave you guys with a scene from Civil War: Disney! :hahaha;
Let this be a lesson, Wil. Never try to apply comic book reality to the real world, especially with regards to crap like Civil War. It never ends well.
Let this be a lesson, Wil. Never try to apply comic book reality to the real world, especially with regards to crap like Civil War. It never ends well.
I think you got it backwards: it’s applying too much reality to comic books that doesn’t work.
He requested in one of his threads a few months ago. And it was only a petition, not a demand (otherwise I would’ve brought it to a mod’s attention.) And I hope you’re also directing the criticism at him here. Pay better attention next time.
Pay better attention? You could also have PMed a mod or admin when it happened. We don’t see everything. You can stop trying telling me how to do my job. Petition or demand, it doesn’t matter. Telling/asking/requesting that someone not post in your threads any more is a subset of trolling.
Sorry 984, but I didn’t read the above post. I’ve though a lot about it and decided that ignoring you is the best thing to do. I tried to block you but I can’t since you’re a moderator, but nothing forces me to read your postings. If you need to contact me, do it by PM. But do it only for official business.
I should’ve done this sooner, it would’ve saved us a bit of grief. I admit that was my fault. I have a hard time giving up on people, I guess…
Wil, speaking as a friend and as a Mod: you are seriously taking this a little too far. I get it, you don;t like Charle or 984. I’m pretty sure nobody’s going to entirely fault you for that - well, okay, some will, but whatever. The point is, Wil, you can’t ignore 984’s posts, or tell people not to post in your threads. While you might not appreciate what they bring to your threads, it’s still their right to post what they think.
Also, yeah, whether you think you are or not, you’re kinda patronizing when you talk like that.
