Is Final Fantasy as exciting as before? (FF12 SPOILERS)

RPGC Community The FFCompendium Forum
81

Umm, Red, my point isn’t that the story didn’t contain spiritual matters, or that the characters didn’t learn from them; only that they lacked a proper main character to help them do so.

But again, this is just my opinion Everybody else can of course disagree.

I found it to be far more believable and poignant when the protagonists had to figure things out as they go along.
True, but most people -even in fantasy- don’t have to deal with the whole “balance of Life and Death” thing. You know very well that many people complained about the game’s final Boss, whose presence does make sense but was so sudden (i.e., no foreshadowing) that it bothered many players

82

The final boss has little to nothing to do with the actual story. It was a throwaway boss whose story was only slightly filled in after the fact. I wouldn’t take any proofs from there.

83

Of course they learned from them. Amarant learned that you don’t always have to look out for #1. Vivi learned that “life goes on” and that you shouldn’t dwell on death. Steiner learned that sometimes, “Honor and Duty” arent synonyms, and that sometimes you have to do what is neccessay and what is right, forsaking duty, and sometimes honor(this is a hell of thing for a person to let go of). Garnet learned a lot, from her personal growth, learning about Love, and relationships, to how to deal with grief and loss. She learned a lot about governing a kingdom, how to manage the needs of the people and maintaining a peace and alliance with neighboring kingdoms. I’d say Princess Garnet probably had the most growth by the end.
I didn’t follow Freyja’s and Eiko’s story too well, so i really don’t know what to say about them.

But as for the know-it all wiseman there to help the group. Ramuh showed up and gave the characters some guidence, and didn’t Garland drop a bombshell of information on the characters ? Are you looking for a Beugenhagen type guy ? or what ? I don’t think i’m getting your point about this.

84

Flint: I’m thinking more of a Balthier type of character. Vaan and Penelo feel like they’d be really lost without him (and the other characters) to guide them (I hear Balthier WAS meant to be the main character of 12 originally, but that they changed the focus to Vaan to fit the expectations of most FF fans.) Come to think of it, the character chemistry in 12 is kind of wonky itself; characters like Balthier, Fran and Basch seem to know a lot, but don’t explain themselves much (Fran in particular is a mystery); Ashe is somewhere in between, in that she’s more worldly than Vaan or Penelo, but doesn’t seem sure of what she wants to do some times. Of course, I have yet to finish the game (I’m about to fight Cid, in fact) so I’m not judging any of them yet.

85

I hear Balthier WAS meant to be the main character of 12 originally, but that they changed the focus to Vaan to fit the expectations of most FF fans.

I don’t know if this is true, but I can totally see it being (painfully) so. Gad. Seriously, Vaan felt so frickin’ useless as a character. Sure, he offers up a view of how the people of Rabanastre feels under the weight of being part of the empire, but very early on he’s made his point about it and he’s left as a plot crutch - and a weak one at that.

It shows that Balthier might have been the main character instead, because there’s so much focus on him (rightly so, because he’s made of win). Note how Vaan and Penelo fades into the background in some of the more important cut scenes, for example the Big Revelation™ on the Phon Coast?

86

Vaan is an observer; he’s only the “main character” in that you follow him around. Ashe is really the main character of the game, and of course she’s unsure of what she wants to do. No one, no matter how wise, can tell her how to decide the incredibly difficult choices she faces.

Balthier might be the “leading man”, and an important one to the story, but he’s not the main character.

The truth is that the idea of a “main character” has much to do with leadership roles over the rest of the party. While they do look up to Balthier, Ashe is the one with the leadership, the power and the decisions.

Fran is meant to be a mystery; she’s always a mystery throughout this game and the sequel. Don’t forget that she’s much, much older than anyone else, and sticks around largely because she comes from a society which prizes community above all else, and which she’s been excommunicated from. Balthier is pretty much the only thing she has, and while she doesn’t look up to him per se, she follows him out of a mixture of gratitude and, well, boredom. She isn’t all that interested in most of what goes on, because she’s seen too much in her life to get too involved.

87

I’ll be very careful then, but there are a few things i do want to know about Baltheir, since there are ranks of Judges, i was always curious about what his rank was. Was he one of the Judge Magisters, or just the nerdy little judges you fight when you rescue Ashe ? I would also have liked to know more about his relationship with Fran, because as he points out, “She’s special. Shed deign to partner with a hume.” We get why she left the wood(mostly), but at what point do they meet, and on what grounds do they become lovas ? It’s pretty clear though, and i always laughed about Baltheir saying, “I’m the leading man”, because he truly is. I normally make Baltheir leader of the party when i include him. Then i make Ashe leader after him, and then Basch. I’ll only make Vaan or Fran leader if i need to micro-manage their skills.
Basch has a good reason for knowing stuff, because he is, pretty much, the Obi-Wan character. He’s the guy who’s been everywhere, fought everyone, “drank more beer and pissed more blood”, LOL.
I re-watched it, but on the bonus CD that comes with the Collectors Edition, one of the creators says that in some early drafts, Baltheir was considered, but in some of the more final drafts, Basche was intended to be the main character. Then they made Vaan the main character to relate more with the players, as you said.
In the end though, my only complaint was with the armor-character model thing, and not with the characters, their representation, nor the story line. It was all good to me. I hope you enjoy the rest of it :stuck_out_tongue: and sorry if i’ve spoiled anything in my previous posts, it’s easy to get careless when you’re trying to make a point sometimes.

88

I highly doubt he was ever a Judge Magister; they all seem to be older gentleman. Balthier’s young now; there’s no way his appointment would have been accepted at such a young age.

As for Fran, they do share a special bond, but neither of them are very emotional or touchy-feely, so it never comes out. They’re quite businesslike about it. I honestly don’t know if they’re physical lovers, but it’d be surprising if they weren’t; FF12RW makes it clear that viera do take husbands from other species.

89

Ashe is really the main character
I’m not sure I agree here. True, the story revolves around her decisions; but almost always, someone or something else gets her to change her mind; and surprisingly easily too. Heck, at this point in the game I’m STILL not sure why she’s seeing her late husband’s ghost, or why Vaan can see it too (?) As you pointed out, just being the focus of the story doesn’t make a character the ‘main’ one.

I’ll give FF12 this: it’s a more realistic take on this kind of situation (e.g. “should a conquered Nation fight for its freedom, or seek to coexist with its new rulers?”) than most games would aim for. Though the sudden turnabouts in the story’s direction (“We must fight the Empire! No wait, too many lives will be lost! No wait, we DO have to fight it after all!” etc.) are too annoying for my taste. Good plot, poor execution.

As for Fran, she’s TOO much of a mystery. They can retain her mystique without teasing us about facts that never get revealed. I found the whole bit in Eruyt village, between her and her sisters, very infuriating, in that they kept talking about how great being in rapport with The Wood is, yet also many Vieras feel they “have to leave” but later regret it yet know they can “never return.”

As for Fran and Balthier being lovers, that’s the basic assumption, but I have yet to see them exchange anything resembling a loving remark, not counting sarcastic comments. That’s unusual even by the culturally-shy standards of the Japanese. It’s OK to me if they are just partners who just happen to be of opposite genders, with no love or sex going on, but I wish they’d just state it clearly.

Btw, sorry if I sound too critical, folks, but keep in mind, I’m a writer by nature; I don’t always see stories (even in-game ones) quite the same way that most people do; I tend to notice plotholes and character flaws right away.

sorry if i’ve spoiled anything in my previous posts, it’s easy to get careless when you’re trying to make a point sometimes.
He don’ know me too well, do he? Oh well, he’s new around here. :slight_smile:

Flint, as most folks are tired of hearing me say by now, I’m immune to spoilers! So much so I often check out the ending of a story FIRST just to make sure I’ll like it; it’s not so much that I don’t like surprises, as that I HATE the bad ones. Thanks for caring, anyway. Do tag any real spoilers for other people’s sake, though.

90

As you pointed out, just being the focus of the story doesn’t make a character the ‘main’ one.

I never said that. I said that being the person who walks around doesn’t make him the main character. Being the focus of the story certainly does. That’s what a protagonist is. A protagonist isn’t someone who always knows what he’s doing; he’s simply the person whose struggles make up the main part of the plot.

Good plot, poor execution.

Again, real life is like that. New facts come to light and mean that you need to change your path. Or people can convince you otherwise. A personal decision I had to make this week was changed three times in as many days. That happens quite a lot.

As for Fran, she’s TOO much of a mystery.

A little mystery is good for you. 8p Ivalice titles often don’t spoonfeed you things - remember the endings to FF Tactics or Vagrant Story?

As for Fran and Balthier being lovers, that’s the basic assumption, but I have yet to see them exchange anything resembling a loving remark, not counting sarcastic comments. That’s unusual even by the culturally-shy standards of the Japanese.

Actually, when it comes to sex Japan is much more liberal than Americans. And again, it comes back down to character. Firstly, Balthier and Fran have been traveling together for so long that they’re used to each other; they’re past the romantic love stage (unless you consider Balthier as pretty much always being romantic - but that’s without trying). Secondly, neither Balthier nor Fran are the type to open up at all. They both have pasts and personalities they’d rather keep to themselves. Finally, they have a working relationship and are generally businesslike in front of everyone else.

Do tag any real spoilers for other people’s sake, though.

It’s way too late at this point. 8p I’m going to rename the thread so people know what they’re getting into.

91

Just to jump in here, I finally picked up FFXII last week. I really wasn’t all that excited for it leading up to its release, or when it first came out. The demo disc that came with Dragon Quest VIII didn’t really get me pumped. But, seeing it on the shelf of EB for $19.99, I figured it was worth a shot.

I’m nowhere into the story, just past beating the Rogue Tomato and Vayne’s address. I’ve spent most of my time just jerking around and fighting crap, and by following a power walkthrough, gotten Vaan up to Lv22.

I’ve never played FFXI, and at first I was unsure what to make of the new battle system, but it’s grown on me so far, even if there’s not a whole lot I can do with it at the moment. I dislike the Liscence system though. I give em points for effort in trying to make another new system to evolve your characters, but it just seems rather ridiculous.

So far, having seen none of the story I can’t really comment on it, though I agree with the Star Wars similarities with what I HAVE seen. I swear, I was humming the Jedi theme when Vaan was looking up at the sky wanting to be a Sky Pirate.

On the overall topic of the post, about whether the FF games are losing their initial appeal, I think it really just depends on the person. The tastes of individual gamers evolve over time, and though one might’ve been psyched about FFX, their tastes could’ve changed enough in the several years before FFXII or FFXIII. I know it’s that way with me. If this were five or six year ago then I would’ve probably gotten FFXII right when it came out and played it to death within a week. Nowadays, though, much of my gaming time is spent on WoW, and any console gaming is on much shorter games. This is probably why the Wii is the perfect current-gen system for me. But, everyone’s tastes are different, and can easily change from one year to the next. Who knows? In a year or two I may come full circle and go back to being pumped about the next FF, depending on my free time, and whether I’ll have the spare cash to get whatever system it’s for.

Oh yeah, regarding the basic ‘world’ of FFXII… every frickin male in Ivalice needs to wear a goddamned shirt.

92

Again, real life is like that.
But this is fiction; a balance between Realism and the Needs of the Story is always needed. Personally, if forced to choose, I feel the later should outweigh the former.

remember the endings to FF Tactics or Vagrant Story?
I haven’t played or read about VS. And PLEASE don’t remind me of the ending of FFT- it’s one of the reasons I look out the endings first. :frowning:

Actually, when it comes to sex Japan is much more liberal than Americans.
Sex, maybe, but relationships, no. Did you know the Japanese didn’t even kiss in public until after the War? Even in many Animes today, characters kissing is a big deal.

every frickin male in Ivalice needs to wear a goddamned shirt.

I’d say that what they need is a little less metrosexuality. (that was a Joke, don’t jump on my case people!) :stuck_out_tongue:

93

But this is fiction; a balance between Realism and the Needs of the Story is always needed. Personally, if forced to choose, I feel the later should outweigh the former.

I thought the story proceeded quite nicely as it was. And the more realistic a story can be, the more it touches the viewer/player. Fantasy is well and good, but it has its limits.

And PLEASE don’t remind me of the ending of FFT- it’s one of the reasons I look out the endings first. :frowning:

Really? It was one of the things I loved about it. It made you think and wonder. It didn’t wrap everything up in a nice bow for you.

94

Really?

Really. I’ve whined about it here, what, a dozen times over the years? :stuck_out_tongue: (note: I’m talking about Delita and Ovelia stabbing each other, in case you’re confused.)

It didn’t wrap everything up in a nice bow for you.
Which is especially inappropriate for Final Fantasy, since (originally, anyway) each game was supposed to be self-contained and never revisited.

I guess I just don’t like vagueness or pessimism in my entertainment- especially if I have to pay for it!

95

It is self-contained and never revisited. It’s a tragedic ending. Ever see or read Hamlet? Or King Lear or Macbeth? They never did a sequel to any of them.

96

I agree to a point that Balthier and Fran arent the type to open up. However, everyone opens up to someone sometime. Baltheir seems to know alot about Fran, and also seems really protective of her feelings. They give eachother too much body language and significant glances for there to not be more than a professional relationship between them.
Not unlike Vaan and Penelo. At first i thought it was the “brother and sister” type relationship that seems to be a common plot among two young people who grew up together. But the more i watch, the more body language and nuance of speech leads me to believe they have really deep feelings for eachother, that go way past the brother/sister childhood. Although, it could be that very much, because i noticed the japanese are very-very weird when it comes to brothers and sisters(particularly twins).

There is one other thing i have learned about the Japanese. They are a very deeply feeling people. (i also learned that the Japanese don’t like to say “no”)

97

Vaan and Penelo definitely have something between each other; it becomes much more pronounced in Revenant Wings.

And yes, Japanese really do seem to have very deep and powerful emotions. Things which would be dismissed as corny or hackneyed in America are still quite popular and well-loved by them.

98

You’re not getting my point. If you never plan on revisiting certain characters or worlds, then you should tell your audience as much as you can in the story. Oh, and I don’t care for Shakespearian tragedies either. Nothing wrong with them, just not the stuff I like in my RPGs.

I agree to a point that Balthier and Fran arent the type to open up. However, everyone opens up to someone sometime.
Exactly; again, it may be realistic for their type of character to not open up much, but if they never do, then they never become more than one-dimensional.

They give eachother too much body language and significant glances for there to not be more than a professional relationship between them.
Significant isn’t the same as romantic or tender. Though again, I can’t judge them until I’ve seen the full story personally.

Not unlike Vaan and Penelo. At first i thought it was the “brother and sister” type relationship that seems to be a common plot among two young people who grew up together.
Yeah, they seem to be the same old “Friends who grew up together and love each other but find it awkward to express” types that we’ve seen in many Animes and RPGs; yet, even at the point I’m now, I still can’t tell if they really have romantic feelings for each other. Heck, the only real clue so far is in the Viera Randevous subquest, where a love-seeking Viera tells Vaan she can feel he’s “Spoken For” but doesn’t say by whom.

This game is definitely too slow in its character development, which hurts my attempts to care for the characters.

And yes, Japanese really do seem to have very deep and powerful emotions. Things which would be dismissed as corny or hackneyed in America are still quite popular and well-loved by them.
Depends on the type of story you see. Shojo stories and Romantic comedies are certainly full of “strong emotions” ranging from crippling shyness to desperate embarrassment to rightous anger. But again, loving kisses are rare.

99

You’re not getting my point. If you never plan on revisiting certain characters or worlds, then you should tell your audience as much as you can in the story. Oh, and I don’t care for Shakespearian tragedies either. Nothing wrong with them, just not the stuff I like in my RPGs.

Then you agree that the story isn’t bad, it’s just not your personal preference. I personally enjoy a bit of mystique. Some of the best stories in the world leave the audience guessing.

Exactly; again, it may be realistic for their type of character to not open up much, but if they never do, then they never become more than one-dimensional.

First you’re railing against characters being too realistic, then you dislike the fact that they’re not realistic enough. Pick your battles.

This game is definitely too slow in its character development, which hurts my attempts to care for the characters.

The truth is that the star of the game’s story isn’t the characters at all. All of the characters have “Vaan syndrome” to some extent - they are observers. The main actors are the countries and factions involved in political intrigues; both the leaders and the everyday citizens play a significant role in it. And in fact, that’s also very realistic. There are few inspiring leaders like Churchill or Gandhi; many revolutions and important events happen all at once. I found it a refreshing change of pace from the “five plucky heroes take on one big bad guy” RPG cliche.

100

Okay, okay, I mostly agree with a lot of what you’ve said, but I think you’re just pushing your idea of what you’d like the game to be about here. No, it’s not a conflict between nations. Suikoden II, V and even I have conflicts in which the “nation” takes precedence over the characters, and still manage to portray both the general and individual views on the matter. FFXII has three different factions looking at each other ugly WAY off-camera for the whole game while the only six guys you DO see in regular basis take a walking trip through the continent that ends up doing comparatively very little, and the whole thing ends in an interrupted battle between two of them without the third ever showing up. The peasants do the exact same thing they do in every other single game ever: They die like dogs to provide some vague feeling of catastrophe which would have a lot more meaning if you were actually doing something about all that instead of wandering through the world’s arse looking for the goddamn Dragon Balls. Or, say, if it actually happened during the game. You see, massacres are only shocking when they happen in the moment or you see the immediate after-effects. A Rabanastre that’s already essentially getting back on its feet and a Nabudis that’s so ill designed that you wouldn’t be able to tell people were once living in that place don’t do the trick, and Bur Omisace is, at this point, just way too common to have that much impact. Also the leaders of the armies would probably be a lot better characterized if they had actually more than three lines thrown in between every forty hours of dungeon crawling.

You can go on and on about how the matter needs a lot of “reading between the lines” but the fact is, it’s hard to read between the lines when they are separated by three miles worth of blank paper in between each. Shit happens in the game, but you’re never even remotely close enough to be given a reason to care about any of it.