Is Final Fantasy as exciting as before? (FF12 SPOILERS)

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#86

Vaan is an observer; he’s only the “main character” in that you follow him around. Ashe is really the main character of the game, and of course she’s unsure of what she wants to do. No one, no matter how wise, can tell her how to decide the incredibly difficult choices she faces.

Balthier might be the “leading man”, and an important one to the story, but he’s not the main character.

The truth is that the idea of a “main character” has much to do with leadership roles over the rest of the party. While they do look up to Balthier, Ashe is the one with the leadership, the power and the decisions.

Fran is meant to be a mystery; she’s always a mystery throughout this game and the sequel. Don’t forget that she’s much, much older than anyone else, and sticks around largely because she comes from a society which prizes community above all else, and which she’s been excommunicated from. Balthier is pretty much the only thing she has, and while she doesn’t look up to him per se, she follows him out of a mixture of gratitude and, well, boredom. She isn’t all that interested in most of what goes on, because she’s seen too much in her life to get too involved.

#87

I’ll be very careful then, but there are a few things i do want to know about Baltheir, since there are ranks of Judges, i was always curious about what his rank was. Was he one of the Judge Magisters, or just the nerdy little judges you fight when you rescue Ashe ? I would also have liked to know more about his relationship with Fran, because as he points out, “She’s special. Shed deign to partner with a hume.” We get why she left the wood(mostly), but at what point do they meet, and on what grounds do they become lovas ? It’s pretty clear though, and i always laughed about Baltheir saying, “I’m the leading man”, because he truly is. I normally make Baltheir leader of the party when i include him. Then i make Ashe leader after him, and then Basch. I’ll only make Vaan or Fran leader if i need to micro-manage their skills.
Basch has a good reason for knowing stuff, because he is, pretty much, the Obi-Wan character. He’s the guy who’s been everywhere, fought everyone, “drank more beer and pissed more blood”, LOL.
I re-watched it, but on the bonus CD that comes with the Collectors Edition, one of the creators says that in some early drafts, Baltheir was considered, but in some of the more final drafts, Basche was intended to be the main character. Then they made Vaan the main character to relate more with the players, as you said.
In the end though, my only complaint was with the armor-character model thing, and not with the characters, their representation, nor the story line. It was all good to me. I hope you enjoy the rest of it :stuck_out_tongue: and sorry if i’ve spoiled anything in my previous posts, it’s easy to get careless when you’re trying to make a point sometimes.

#88

I highly doubt he was ever a Judge Magister; they all seem to be older gentleman. Balthier’s young now; there’s no way his appointment would have been accepted at such a young age.

As for Fran, they do share a special bond, but neither of them are very emotional or touchy-feely, so it never comes out. They’re quite businesslike about it. I honestly don’t know if they’re physical lovers, but it’d be surprising if they weren’t; FF12RW makes it clear that viera do take husbands from other species.

#89

Ashe is really the main character
I’m not sure I agree here. True, the story revolves around her decisions; but almost always, someone or something else gets her to change her mind; and surprisingly easily too. Heck, at this point in the game I’m STILL not sure why she’s seeing her late husband’s ghost, or why Vaan can see it too (?) As you pointed out, just being the focus of the story doesn’t make a character the ‘main’ one.

I’ll give FF12 this: it’s a more realistic take on this kind of situation (e.g. “should a conquered Nation fight for its freedom, or seek to coexist with its new rulers?”) than most games would aim for. Though the sudden turnabouts in the story’s direction (“We must fight the Empire! No wait, too many lives will be lost! No wait, we DO have to fight it after all!” etc.) are too annoying for my taste. Good plot, poor execution.

As for Fran, she’s TOO much of a mystery. They can retain her mystique without teasing us about facts that never get revealed. I found the whole bit in Eruyt village, between her and her sisters, very infuriating, in that they kept talking about how great being in rapport with The Wood is, yet also many Vieras feel they “have to leave” but later regret it yet know they can “never return.”

As for Fran and Balthier being lovers, that’s the basic assumption, but I have yet to see them exchange anything resembling a loving remark, not counting sarcastic comments. That’s unusual even by the culturally-shy standards of the Japanese. It’s OK to me if they are just partners who just happen to be of opposite genders, with no love or sex going on, but I wish they’d just state it clearly.

Btw, sorry if I sound too critical, folks, but keep in mind, I’m a writer by nature; I don’t always see stories (even in-game ones) quite the same way that most people do; I tend to notice plotholes and character flaws right away.

sorry if i’ve spoiled anything in my previous posts, it’s easy to get careless when you’re trying to make a point sometimes.
He don’ know me too well, do he? Oh well, he’s new around here. :slight_smile:

Flint, as most folks are tired of hearing me say by now, I’m immune to spoilers! So much so I often check out the ending of a story FIRST just to make sure I’ll like it; it’s not so much that I don’t like surprises, as that I HATE the bad ones. Thanks for caring, anyway. Do tag any real spoilers for other people’s sake, though.

#90

As you pointed out, just being the focus of the story doesn’t make a character the ‘main’ one.

I never said that. I said that being the person who walks around doesn’t make him the main character. Being the focus of the story certainly does. That’s what a protagonist is. A protagonist isn’t someone who always knows what he’s doing; he’s simply the person whose struggles make up the main part of the plot.

Good plot, poor execution.

Again, real life is like that. New facts come to light and mean that you need to change your path. Or people can convince you otherwise. A personal decision I had to make this week was changed three times in as many days. That happens quite a lot.

As for Fran, she’s TOO much of a mystery.

A little mystery is good for you. 8p Ivalice titles often don’t spoonfeed you things - remember the endings to FF Tactics or Vagrant Story?

As for Fran and Balthier being lovers, that’s the basic assumption, but I have yet to see them exchange anything resembling a loving remark, not counting sarcastic comments. That’s unusual even by the culturally-shy standards of the Japanese.

Actually, when it comes to sex Japan is much more liberal than Americans. And again, it comes back down to character. Firstly, Balthier and Fran have been traveling together for so long that they’re used to each other; they’re past the romantic love stage (unless you consider Balthier as pretty much always being romantic - but that’s without trying). Secondly, neither Balthier nor Fran are the type to open up at all. They both have pasts and personalities they’d rather keep to themselves. Finally, they have a working relationship and are generally businesslike in front of everyone else.

Do tag any real spoilers for other people’s sake, though.

It’s way too late at this point. 8p I’m going to rename the thread so people know what they’re getting into.

#91

Just to jump in here, I finally picked up FFXII last week. I really wasn’t all that excited for it leading up to its release, or when it first came out. The demo disc that came with Dragon Quest VIII didn’t really get me pumped. But, seeing it on the shelf of EB for $19.99, I figured it was worth a shot.

I’m nowhere into the story, just past beating the Rogue Tomato and Vayne’s address. I’ve spent most of my time just jerking around and fighting crap, and by following a power walkthrough, gotten Vaan up to Lv22.

I’ve never played FFXI, and at first I was unsure what to make of the new battle system, but it’s grown on me so far, even if there’s not a whole lot I can do with it at the moment. I dislike the Liscence system though. I give em points for effort in trying to make another new system to evolve your characters, but it just seems rather ridiculous.

So far, having seen none of the story I can’t really comment on it, though I agree with the Star Wars similarities with what I HAVE seen. I swear, I was humming the Jedi theme when Vaan was looking up at the sky wanting to be a Sky Pirate.

On the overall topic of the post, about whether the FF games are losing their initial appeal, I think it really just depends on the person. The tastes of individual gamers evolve over time, and though one might’ve been psyched about FFX, their tastes could’ve changed enough in the several years before FFXII or FFXIII. I know it’s that way with me. If this were five or six year ago then I would’ve probably gotten FFXII right when it came out and played it to death within a week. Nowadays, though, much of my gaming time is spent on WoW, and any console gaming is on much shorter games. This is probably why the Wii is the perfect current-gen system for me. But, everyone’s tastes are different, and can easily change from one year to the next. Who knows? In a year or two I may come full circle and go back to being pumped about the next FF, depending on my free time, and whether I’ll have the spare cash to get whatever system it’s for.

Oh yeah, regarding the basic ‘world’ of FFXII… every frickin male in Ivalice needs to wear a goddamned shirt.

#92

Again, real life is like that.
But this is fiction; a balance between Realism and the Needs of the Story is always needed. Personally, if forced to choose, I feel the later should outweigh the former.

remember the endings to FF Tactics or Vagrant Story?
I haven’t played or read about VS. And PLEASE don’t remind me of the ending of FFT- it’s one of the reasons I look out the endings first. :frowning:

Actually, when it comes to sex Japan is much more liberal than Americans.
Sex, maybe, but relationships, no. Did you know the Japanese didn’t even kiss in public until after the War? Even in many Animes today, characters kissing is a big deal.

every frickin male in Ivalice needs to wear a goddamned shirt.

I’d say that what they need is a little less metrosexuality. (that was a Joke, don’t jump on my case people!) :stuck_out_tongue:

#93

But this is fiction; a balance between Realism and the Needs of the Story is always needed. Personally, if forced to choose, I feel the later should outweigh the former.

I thought the story proceeded quite nicely as it was. And the more realistic a story can be, the more it touches the viewer/player. Fantasy is well and good, but it has its limits.

And PLEASE don’t remind me of the ending of FFT- it’s one of the reasons I look out the endings first. :frowning:

Really? It was one of the things I loved about it. It made you think and wonder. It didn’t wrap everything up in a nice bow for you.

#94

Really?

Really. I’ve whined about it here, what, a dozen times over the years? :stuck_out_tongue: (note: I’m talking about Delita and Ovelia stabbing each other, in case you’re confused.)

It didn’t wrap everything up in a nice bow for you.
Which is especially inappropriate for Final Fantasy, since (originally, anyway) each game was supposed to be self-contained and never revisited.

I guess I just don’t like vagueness or pessimism in my entertainment- especially if I have to pay for it!

#95

It is self-contained and never revisited. It’s a tragedic ending. Ever see or read Hamlet? Or King Lear or Macbeth? They never did a sequel to any of them.

#96

I agree to a point that Balthier and Fran arent the type to open up. However, everyone opens up to someone sometime. Baltheir seems to know alot about Fran, and also seems really protective of her feelings. They give eachother too much body language and significant glances for there to not be more than a professional relationship between them.
Not unlike Vaan and Penelo. At first i thought it was the “brother and sister” type relationship that seems to be a common plot among two young people who grew up together. But the more i watch, the more body language and nuance of speech leads me to believe they have really deep feelings for eachother, that go way past the brother/sister childhood. Although, it could be that very much, because i noticed the japanese are very-very weird when it comes to brothers and sisters(particularly twins).

There is one other thing i have learned about the Japanese. They are a very deeply feeling people. (i also learned that the Japanese don’t like to say “no”)

#97

Vaan and Penelo definitely have something between each other; it becomes much more pronounced in Revenant Wings.

And yes, Japanese really do seem to have very deep and powerful emotions. Things which would be dismissed as corny or hackneyed in America are still quite popular and well-loved by them.

#98

You’re not getting my point. If you never plan on revisiting certain characters or worlds, then you should tell your audience as much as you can in the story. Oh, and I don’t care for Shakespearian tragedies either. Nothing wrong with them, just not the stuff I like in my RPGs.

I agree to a point that Balthier and Fran arent the type to open up. However, everyone opens up to someone sometime.
Exactly; again, it may be realistic for their type of character to not open up much, but if they never do, then they never become more than one-dimensional.

They give eachother too much body language and significant glances for there to not be more than a professional relationship between them.
Significant isn’t the same as romantic or tender. Though again, I can’t judge them until I’ve seen the full story personally.

Not unlike Vaan and Penelo. At first i thought it was the “brother and sister” type relationship that seems to be a common plot among two young people who grew up together.
Yeah, they seem to be the same old “Friends who grew up together and love each other but find it awkward to express” types that we’ve seen in many Animes and RPGs; yet, even at the point I’m now, I still can’t tell if they really have romantic feelings for each other. Heck, the only real clue so far is in the Viera Randevous subquest, where a love-seeking Viera tells Vaan she can feel he’s “Spoken For” but doesn’t say by whom.

This game is definitely too slow in its character development, which hurts my attempts to care for the characters.

And yes, Japanese really do seem to have very deep and powerful emotions. Things which would be dismissed as corny or hackneyed in America are still quite popular and well-loved by them.
Depends on the type of story you see. Shojo stories and Romantic comedies are certainly full of “strong emotions” ranging from crippling shyness to desperate embarrassment to rightous anger. But again, loving kisses are rare.

#99

You’re not getting my point. If you never plan on revisiting certain characters or worlds, then you should tell your audience as much as you can in the story. Oh, and I don’t care for Shakespearian tragedies either. Nothing wrong with them, just not the stuff I like in my RPGs.

Then you agree that the story isn’t bad, it’s just not your personal preference. I personally enjoy a bit of mystique. Some of the best stories in the world leave the audience guessing.

Exactly; again, it may be realistic for their type of character to not open up much, but if they never do, then they never become more than one-dimensional.

First you’re railing against characters being too realistic, then you dislike the fact that they’re not realistic enough. Pick your battles.

This game is definitely too slow in its character development, which hurts my attempts to care for the characters.

The truth is that the star of the game’s story isn’t the characters at all. All of the characters have “Vaan syndrome” to some extent - they are observers. The main actors are the countries and factions involved in political intrigues; both the leaders and the everyday citizens play a significant role in it. And in fact, that’s also very realistic. There are few inspiring leaders like Churchill or Gandhi; many revolutions and important events happen all at once. I found it a refreshing change of pace from the “five plucky heroes take on one big bad guy” RPG cliche.

#100

Okay, okay, I mostly agree with a lot of what you’ve said, but I think you’re just pushing your idea of what you’d like the game to be about here. No, it’s not a conflict between nations. Suikoden II, V and even I have conflicts in which the “nation” takes precedence over the characters, and still manage to portray both the general and individual views on the matter. FFXII has three different factions looking at each other ugly WAY off-camera for the whole game while the only six guys you DO see in regular basis take a walking trip through the continent that ends up doing comparatively very little, and the whole thing ends in an interrupted battle between two of them without the third ever showing up. The peasants do the exact same thing they do in every other single game ever: They die like dogs to provide some vague feeling of catastrophe which would have a lot more meaning if you were actually doing something about all that instead of wandering through the world’s arse looking for the goddamn Dragon Balls. Or, say, if it actually happened during the game. You see, massacres are only shocking when they happen in the moment or you see the immediate after-effects. A Rabanastre that’s already essentially getting back on its feet and a Nabudis that’s so ill designed that you wouldn’t be able to tell people were once living in that place don’t do the trick, and Bur Omisace is, at this point, just way too common to have that much impact. Also the leaders of the armies would probably be a lot better characterized if they had actually more than three lines thrown in between every forty hours of dungeon crawling.

You can go on and on about how the matter needs a lot of “reading between the lines” but the fact is, it’s hard to read between the lines when they are separated by three miles worth of blank paper in between each. Shit happens in the game, but you’re never even remotely close enough to be given a reason to care about any of it.

#101

I won’t argue it could have been better presented. But if you take the time to talk to NPCs, read the Clan Primer, and pay attention to the back-and-forth, you can glean an intriguing story out of it.

#102

Whoa, nelly! [SPOILER]Tifa overcame her fear that she could lose Cloud by telling the truth and basically came to understand that no matter what, the truth was more important than misleading the one she loves, although that point isn’t as clear as I thought it would have been after Aeris was out of the way for her.

Barrett stopped blaming himself for Dyne’s misfortune and…er, became a better father because of it? You know what? He was just a blatant black caricature from start to finish so you might have me beat.

Nanaki learned that his father wasn’t a coward (I hated that dungeon by the way, I always had trouble with that boss) and though I’m not doing the scene justice, you can’t say that didn’t change Nanaki’s perspective on himself or what it meant to be a hero. [/SPOILER]

Cid stopped being a jerk based off of his incorrect perception of the shuttle’s launch and I’d even note that beating the Wutai Pagoda sidequest and the Lucretia sidequest shine a different light on Yuffie and Vincent respectively.

As a matter of fact, it seems like every major conflict in FF7 is propelled by a character’s inability to percieve the truth or their denial of it. Or in Tifa’s case, which is even worse in my opinion, their will to prop up a false reality instead of dealing with their problems. What FF7 failed to do that FF9 excelled at was creating a sense of genuine comradarie and friendship between it’s characters. Besides the C-A-T love triangle we had going for a bit, the characters don’t really relate to one another; the longer the game goes on, the less they seem to attempt to do with the secondary characters. I guess those little “events” that would occur when you entered a new town really did build up the characters then, huh?

Funny, I can’t remember many character relationships in FF8 I liked.

Wait, is there a statute of limitations for spoilers? I remember there was that comic about spoiling King Kong on PA about that…and there’s the fact that FF7 came out when I was like, 9 years old.

#103

you agree that the story isn’t bad, it’s just not your personal preference.
Certainly, and I’ve never meant otherwise. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. I’ve never truly sat down to analyze FFT fairly, though some of its flaws, like the way the Lucavi subplot fits in, are apparent.

First you’re railing against characters being too realistic, then you dislike the fact that they’re not realistic enough. Pick your battles.
Ok, you lost me here. I specifically said that realism and plot needs to be balanced in any story, though, if forced to choose, I’d personally favor plot over realism.

Seraphim: You made an excellent point on how the way any story (not just an RPG’s) is presented affects the impact it has on the audience. While Cid may have a point that the story of 12 is bigger than its characters, that isn’t how it’s coming across so far. And I’m starting to fear how the Esper subplot will affect it as well (will it seem as intrusive as in Tactics? Again, I’ll decide after I complete the game.)

You know, one thing I wish this game had, is a “watch the cutscenes again” feature like certain games such as Lunar have; it would be a lot easier to criticize the story if we could see all the scenes next to each other rather than separated by hours of wandering around.

#104

Not only it is not as intrusive, it is simply not there at all. You’ll use Belias once to open a door, and you’ll get one summoned on you as a throwaway boss, and that’s it. There is not another mention of the Espers throughout the entire story, and even the one I just mentioned is only recognizable as an Esper because of the introduction.

They’re just random side-bosses that are scattered across the map whom you fight for no other reason than completion and whose “power beyond measure” as Ashe put it is completely ignored for the rest of the plot. Don’t worry though, you’ll still get another pseudo-fantastical plot quest thrown at you to take you as far away from any relevant political event as it is physically possible.

EDIT: You know what I just realized? “Befriending Larsa”. That’s it. That’s the ONE thing you ever do before the ending battle that has any meaning to the conflict. Even the whole mess with the Occuria only takes value when considering the overal flow of history, but as for the Archadia-Dalmasca-Rozarria mess, making buddies with Larsa is pretty much the only thing Ashe’s quest managed to do that had any sort of meaning in the end.

#105

True, there was some character growth in FF7, but nowhere near as dramatic as that in FF9. Many of the characters in FF9 really end up being entirely different people from who they were when they started. In FF7, Cloud and Cid are the only ones who really have any sort of personality change or growth (and even Cid isn’t any less of a jerk, he’s just nicer to Shera specifically). The others may learn a lesson or two, but they don’t intrinsically change.