In response to Val’s question...

This didn’t seem fitting for a PM, so blame the mod parties for a needless new thread.

You have got to admit that as a game, Disgaea falls pretty darn short. For starters, the “T” in this TRPG probably stands for Torture or something like that, because it definitely doesn’t mean Tactical. The enemy AI is nothing short of retarded, the mechanics hardly allow any real sort of strategy since height and position aren’t even a factor when calculating damage or accuracy, there are only two REAL classes (Nukebots and Bashers) while the other five thousand are variations of the same with marginally different stats, the floor panels are either useless or ridiculously easy to exploit/nullify, and once again, THE ENEMY AI IS FUCKING RETARDED. Seriously, if for some reason I can’t kill them, I can always count on them killing themselves.

Then there are some of the leveling mechanics. There’s nothing like spending your first hard-earned mana in creating a Cleric only to find out classes only gain levels by dealing the killing blow. Hello? SUPPORT class, remember? Sure, I can tweak it around by teaching them spells or having someone weaken an enemy for them, but the very fact that there’s a class unable to move from Lvl 1 by itself is stupid.

And the leveling by itself… I can take “chore” games. I play them, but Disgaea pushes the limits a bit too much. Finishing the normal game does take a certain but acceptable amount of work, but even stepping into the bonus areas requires you to slave away level crunching/equipment boosting for DAYS. Bonus areas are for those who want to keep on playing harder challenges, that’s great, but when there’s a one thousand levels leap from one map to another, and no possible strategy, you have a problem.

Now don’t get me wrong, the characters are God’s gift to the gaming community. Laharl, Etna, Flonne, Mid-Boss and Gordon are all brilliant, the dialogue is hilarious, the voice acting is perfect and while the story is inane, it doesn’t piss me off. I’m very glad I played through it and I’m camping my closest gaming store when Disgaea 2 comes out, but the “game” part needs some SEVERE fixing.

And that’s what killed all enjoyment for me, I spent all my goddamn time trying to evenly build up a somewhat diverse party, which resulted in me not being able to PLAY the game because I was more concerned with giving my lameass characters the finisher. Oh, and the fact that you can’t effectively upgrade to your higher tier class until a good while into the game, and your level resets when you do that.

I enjoyed being punished for not sticking exclusively with Laharl, really.

I found out that every time I transmigrated, reaching my previous level was pretty easy. The real kicker came when I had finished taking my party (Everyone being the highest possible Genius form of their classes, including the Angel and the Majin) to lvl 2000 and realized that if I had just focused on buffing Laharl, I would already have had a lvl 9999 character that could finish off anything instead of a “balanced” party that would probably need another week of training after two or three stages.

They lasted only one stage, by the way.

I know it doesn’t work always, but one of the ways I found around getting characters to have to kill anyone is let them be out on the map when I’m about to get a massive exp. bonus in item World.Got my characters to higher levels fairly quickly, I thought.

Oh, I’m not lacking in ways to level them, I’m just saying that the very fact that you have to look for alternate methods is dumb in itself.

I like how I can completely fail at phrasing something as simple as that.

Perhaps where Disgaea hides its “strategy” and “tactical” elemenents?:hint:

Anyway, I never really minded levelling up, so what some call “tedious”, I call fun. Although I was disapointed with myself when I gave up levelling at level 1600 after I beat Baal. I tried beating in Prinny form and only took away about half of his life, but then I gave up. I only clocked about 100 hours too. Compare that to levelling and doing “fetch quests” in DWVII and that doesn’t seem like a long time.

If your strategic and tactical elements are finding “creative” ways to level up your characters, it’s not a very good SRPG system.

The Shining Forces and Growlansers handle exp better with their respective systems. I’d say that any SRPG should use the basic framework of either SF’s or GL’s system for the game to be any good.

tactics ogre had good strategic elements if you ever wonder about what game you should try in that genre. It is easy to overcome difficult barries by a couple levels and you need to gain a level or 2 after each fight, which is a little tedious. However, it does provide a tactical challenge if you allow yourself not to be overpowered. SF is a good system. If Disgaea is like La Pucelle, which I suspect it is, it is devoid of tactical elements.

I was not implying that I was basing my definition of “strategy” and “tactics” on the requirment of finding unorthodox levelling techniques. I was just responding to SE’s criticism to the absense of strategy needed in the game because of the game’s subpar AI.

Your response to the lack of strategy needed was that the strategy system was hidden in finding out how to level up. That’s essentially the equivalent to saying that the strategic system is figuring out how to level up.

It hides them pretty well since I really can’t see it hidden in finding a map with easy kills and high exp multipliers, then repeating them ad infinitum. Even if I look <i>really hard</i>.

What they said. To expand, having to use strategy to level my characters is once again stupid, especially since A)It really consists in what TD just said B)The real point of having a strategic game is using tactics and logic to DEFEAT THE ENEMY, not spend six hours killing cannon fodder.

Whoa Nelly! Guys, I should have explained myself more clearly. I agree that most NIS games are lacking in difficulty level, this is undisputed. I was merely suggesting that the idea of having to discover unusual levelling methods was in one way the game actually makes you think. Now, whether one decides to spend the hours levelling up using these methods is up the the individual player. I agree that most people would not want to do this. However, I am not one of those people.

TD: “Hides” was probably not the best word, but you have to admit that the game didn’t just jump out and say “Go to COO 3 and Cosmic Slash like crazy to leve up.” We have FAQ’s for that :hahaha; .

No, as a matter of fact, I don’t have to admit that. If you come across a stage, you see exp multiplier squares, and easy kills, you know you can level pretty fast there. Said stages were most likely implemented purely for leveling purposes, so yes, the game IS telling you to go to COO 3 and Cosmic Slash like crazy, as an alternative to having a non-stupid leveling system.

At the risk of being repetitive: What he said. It’s pretty obvious by the setup, the moment in which it becomes available and the enemies’ position that CoO3 was made exclusively for leveling.

I stand corrected. It just may be my foggy memory, but I didn’t level up on COO3 in the traditional “Comic Slash one-hit-kill method”. I acutally had my characters unequipped and had them throw everyone out of bounds. This made one uber monster that gave more experience then all of the previous combined. That’s how I got my Laharl to level 1600. At the higher levels, the amount of experience per kill grows exponentially.

Anyway, what I guess I’m really trying to say, which I should have said initially, is that to finish Disgaea (even get the good ending) requires little skill as you really only need be be about level 50 to finish it. The idea that you have to be at least 2000 to defeat every enemy seems to be a daunting task. NIS has tried to implement some strategic elements into the game, but they can be easily exploited. Then again, all NIS games have this problem, but I tend to look past it. I guess I’m too much of a perfectionist to let this “cannon fodder levelling” get to me.

What I think would be awesome is a TRPG system with, like, virtually no leveling whatsoever. Yeah, maybe you could (somehow) advance classes, and upgrade equipment, but it’d be all “STRATEGY!” instead of “either get thrashed because you’re two levels behind or thrash everyone because you’re two levels ahead” and stuff.

I found the game fun.

Sure, maybe it wasn’t the most “tactical” game around, and past a certain point, there’s really nothing more to do unless you enjoy twinking your characters to oblivion.

Nontheless, I enjoyed the game. And is that not what games are for in the first place?

Also, Yar? You might want to give the Advance Wars games a try. I just got Advance Wars DS (my first one), and that’s pretty much how it works. You get new types of units periodically, but the individual unit stats are pretty much concrete. Certain types might get stronger or weaker depending on certain factors, but that’s all.

I think we call those games TBS, not TRPGs. You know, on account that the RPG element has been mostly cut. On the whole, RPGs suck at being challenging due to their stat-based nature.