I see another Somalia coming.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040308/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/haiti&cid=589&ncid=716

It is starting to turn into the same thing. With the rebels not surrendering their weapons, they could pose a threat. However, we are alreayd there and can’t leave, especially with the country in this shape. Had we not attacked Iraq, this wouldn’t be as big of a problem. However, now this could be very damaging to us. We have to get both sides to calm down if we want to prevent this from devolving into a war. It seems impossible to please one without pissing off the other.

And Aristide isn’t helping with his remarks. Either he doesn’t get it that there will be a civil war if he clings to power or he doesn’t care.

Originally posted by Charlemagne

Pancakes suck.

Originally posted by Sinistral
And Aristide isn’t helping with his remarks. Either he doesn’t get it that there will be a civil war if he clings to power or he doesn’t care.

True, his remarks are just fueling his supporters rage. It seems like he cares more about the position and power than the country. If he was true leader and cared about the country, he would try to get hsi supportes to calm down. One thing that the pro-Arisitide people don’t realize is that Arisitde was goign to be removed from office one way or another. In fact, if we hadn’t jumped in and removed him, there probably would have been a huge battle at the palace and Arisitde could evry well have been killed. The rebels clearly had the upper hand. They had already taken over half the country pretty fast. However, pro-Arisitides are focusing on us being there and not what would have happened had we not interviened. Luckily Haiti is close to us so it’ll be easier for us to manage and if we need to pull out for a bit to regroup, it won’t be a problem since Haiti is so close. We’ll also be able to get whatever we need over there very fast. It is amazing how fast the dealings in Haiti are moving and developing.

Originally posted by Gila-Monster
Pancakes suck.
They’re better than Crepes. Freedom Toast is better.

Originally posted by Infonick
True, his remarks are just fueling his supporters rage. It seems like he cares more about the position and power than the country. If he was true leader and cared about the country, he would try to get hsi supportes to calm down. One thing that the pro-Arisitide people don’t realize is that Arisitde was goign to be removed from office one way or another. In fact, if we hadn’t jumped in and removed him, there probably would have been a huge battle at the palace and Arisitde could evry well have been killed. The rebels clearly had the upper hand. They had already taken over half the country pretty fast. However, pro-Arisitides are focusing on us being there and not what would have happened had we not interviened. Luckily Haiti is close to us so it’ll be easier for us to manage and if we need to pull out for a bit to regroup, it won’t be a problem since Haiti is so close. We’ll also be able to get whatever we need over there very fast. It is amazing how fast the dealings in Haiti are moving and developing.

My thoughts exactly. The problem with the US and France is that they are seen as colonial imperialists for recent and past events. Though Canada is involved and so are a couple other countries, the international apathy is only allowing the problem to fester and ferment.

Originally posted by Infonick
Luckily Haiti is close to us so it’ll be easier for us to manage
Yeah, that’s got to be why we were so successful every single time we “managed” it over the past hundred years, like when we occupied it for almost 20 years in the 20th century, then supported their dictator Duvalier, then installed Aristide at gunpoint in the 90s. Haiti isn’t our backyard, it’s a sovereign nation with the right to decide its own goddamn fate. We have no authority whatsoever to “manage” it, any more than Britain had the authority to “manage” us during our own Civil War, especially since this struggle already owes a lot to our earlier intervention. The only thing we “need” is to leave.

And let the blood bath commence?

Our presence in Somalia sure stopped the bloodbath, now didn’t it? I have no objection to trying to negotiate or encourage discussion between the two sides, while staying neutral, but I completely oppose the idea of occupying Haiti for any length of time. As I said, that would be as if Britain had decided to occupy and “manage” the United States during the American Civil War. Such a thing would have resulted in disaster.

This isn’t a war of independence from a greater power. Its an internal conflict. And though Somalia was a fuck up, its irresponsible to not try to intervene and prevent pointless death. As far as I’m aware, the US and France aren’t trying to run the country, but trying to get the legitimate successor get started. How much the US did to kick out Aristide is debatable since all we’re getting is propaganda.

When I say manage, I don’t mean control them. I mean it’ll be easier for us to work their without straining ourselves as much. Also, Somalia wasn’t really a a civil war, it was genocide. Haiti won’t become a civil war really since it is too one sided. The pro-Aristide people are poor with no weapons. If anything, it would be a massacre. Like I said, Arisitide would ahve been removed one way or another, we just tried to get him out without bloodshed, which we did manage to do. Also, I don’t want us really occupying Haiti either, no one really does. We are there to encourage negoitiations and provide security. It is just that the people who support Arisitide view us as rebel supporters which is causing them to lash at us.

Originally posted by Charlemagne
Freedom Toast is better.
“Freedom Toast”? You mean"French Toast" I hope. The attempted name change was dumb.

“What the French think we shouldn’t invade another country and try to take control of it? We’ll show them! Let’s bombIraq anyway, and to get back at the French, lets RENAME OUR FOOD! Mwahahahaha!!!”

(Seriously, who was dumb enough to say that?)

My girlfriend and I went into a resturaunt in Cooperstown, New York. The menu said “Freedom Fries”. She ordered French Fries…we agreed that if they corrected her by saying “you mean Freedom Fries?” we’d have made fun of them.

I think the claims he is making are true.

Somalia wasn’t genocide per se(there wasn’t any organized massacre of a people, to my knowledge), it was more anarchy. There wasn’t any real government, but instead different armed militias fighting each other for power. Our government is afraid Haiti might degenerate into that now because the armed militias that rebelled against Aristide are refusing to give up their weapons.

Yes, it is disappointing. Yes, it is frustrating. But is anyone really surprised? Really? Truly?

Haiti fought for and won it’s independance 1804, exactly 200 years ago, in the most successful slave revolt in history.

And its been like THIS ever since. One Cuadillo after another. (Especially since the beginning of the Duvaliers’ regimes in the mid 20th century). OF COURSE Aristide cares more about his position (and lining his pockets while in it); that’s one of the requirements for being President of Haiti. Sadly.

I don’t know if Haiti can be fixed. It’s certainly a full time, full resource commitment job. Both by the Haitans themselves, and by any nation(s) wishing to interlope.

Originally posted by Sinistral
This isn’t a war of independence from a greater power. Its an internal conflict.
So was the American Civil War. It would have been one thing if Britain or someone else tried to encourage diplomacy between the Union and Confederacy, and quite another if they decided to start an occupation out of some misguided feeling of “responsibility” (or, more likely, arrogance). It would have been a disaster for everyone involved. That kind of occupation is always good at <i>causing</i> pointless death, but never at preventing it.

Originally posted by KaiserVonAlmasy
Both by the Haitans themselves, and by any nation(s) wishing to interlope.
The reason why it’s so difficult to “fix” Haiti is to a large degree <i>exactly because of</i> “nations wishing to interlope.” Remember how ten years ago, Aristide was the good guy and we had to send 20,000 Marines to install him? Or how Duvalier was propped up by foreign subsidies? A “disappointment,” indeed.

Originally posted by Sephiroth Katana
The reason why it’s so difficult to “fix” Haiti is to a large degree <i>exactly because of</i> “nations wishing to interlope.” Remember how ten years ago, Aristide was the good guy and we had to send 20,000 Marines to install him? Or how Duvalier was propped up by foreign subsidies? A “disappointment,” indeed.

Touche.

Can’t we just nuke the country and be done with it?

But we need to establish some kind of political stability before the country returns to normal. The U.S. government probably should have backed Aristide.