Fix FF7

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21

Where do they say that or show it happening, Cid? I don’t recall it. On the other hand, I DO recall Jenova being described as a shapeshifter, from when she infiltrated the Cetras to kill them (and being a sentient cell-colony type being, it makes sense.)

Why were they wrong? By the time those records were made, Shinra had already found Ifalna, so they should’ve known the truth, no? Either Sephiroth didn’t read the whole thing, or it was all set up so he WOULD have jumped to the wrong conclusion (hey, I expect anything from Hojo.) I hear they expand on that in Dirge of Cerberus, do they?

22

The more I learn about Sephiroth, the more I regret AC didn’t have a scene with someone like Vincent or Cloud explaining everything to him. Just think about it, I’d just love to see the look on his face as he goes “Wait… no way I mean… you GOTTA be shitting me right?”. Of all the sad villains I’ve ever seen in video games, he’s the only one of them that can have their entire drive and reason for madness summed as “Oops”.

23

It doesn’t really make sense that those clones would be Jenova. For one thing, the one in the cargo ship was carrying a piece of Jenova; why would she be carrying her own body parts? Also when Cloud first reaches the Northern Crater and meets “Sephiroth”, he says this line, after which he vanishes:

“You’re right. This is the end of this body’s usefulness.”

No, it never says straight out that Sephiroth can manipulate their appearance, but then it never says straight out that he can fly, either, or that Jenova can. When someone is presented as supernatural, they’re not expected to give a full listing of their powers.

Why were they wrong? By the time those records were made, Shinra had already found Ifalna, so they should’ve known the truth, no?

No, there’s no indication that Ifalna was found before those records were made. The records of Ifalna’s testimony were stored in Icicle Inn, not in Nibelheim; and in any case, they were made by Gast and found by Hojo, neither of which were enthusiastic Shinra workers.

I hear they expand on that in Dirge of Cerberus, do they?

No, Sephiroth is almost entirely ignored in DoC (as is Dr. Gast, oddly enough). There’s more of an emphasis on Vincent, Lucrecia, and Hojo.

24

Gast’s records on Ilfana where made when she was alive with him in Icicle, around the time of Aeris’ birth. Barring the possibility of induced advanced growth on Sephiroth, of which there is no evidence, he should be several years older than Cloud if he was a war hero when Cloud was still a boy in Nibelheim. Then there’s Aeris being merely one year older than Cloud.

When you put everything together, it’s probable that Shinra’s research on Jenova and Sephiroth’s birth both predate Gast’s records by several years. Of course, Shinra had Ilfana for several years before that, but as Cid mentioned, Gast wasn’t precisely a very eager yes-man so the possibility of him hiding stuff from his superiors isn’t unlikely.

25

I admit that was odd, but by the same token, why would Sephiroth steal his “mother’s” body only to cut it into pieces and throw them at the pursuing heroes? I can only conclude that Jenova, again being a creature whose cells could live independently, didn’t care about losing an arm or leg here and there (heck, she had her head ripped off, which I still can’t believe Sephiroth decided to do on his own if he thought she was a Cetra; SOMETHING had to tell him, “just take her head” that something being Jenova herself, the rest of her body being too tangled up.) For all we know, after defeating the lesser Jenovas, their cells were absorbed by Sephiroth (or Cloud) to be present at The Reunion.

Which would mean that Jenova’s body finally went on to merge with all the other Jenova cells in the bodies of the “Sephiroth Clones” (the “Reunion” that forms the final Jenova monster).

I guess I’m looking at the story more as a writer than as the average player, Cid. And in a well-written story, you give clues that explain what will happen later on; mentioning that Jenova changes shape (but not doing so with the “clones”) clues on that the fake Sephiroth was the Jenova body. I admit they should’ve explained it better, tough.

Yet the Shinra Mansion lab was in use as recently as two years before the events of the game (when Cloud was captured) by which time Hojo had to have had access to Ifalna and her body’s data. (Then again, he WAS crazy…)

Too bad. But I still hope they’ll finally clear up Sephiroth’s story one of these days, in fact I’m surprised there isn’t a novella or something about him already, considering how popular he is (Hey, if they made one about such a minor character as one of the kids in AC, why not Sephiroth?)

26

I’m with Wil on one matter: I definitely think Jenova was the head of the totem in all this mess. Sephiroth’s insanity seemed a bit too much to have happened on his own and it makes much more sense to say that Jenova, through her Sephiroth proxy, was manipulating the other cell-infused beings, than Sephiroth somehow gaining control of Jenova’s cells simply because he had an abnormal amount of them in him.

The Nibelheim facilities seemed pretty much abandoned before Sephiroth’s search party arrived. This makes no goddamn sense considering freakin’ Jenova was there, but then again, “she” wasn’t really of any more use to Shinra after they developed the SOLDIER treatment. Hojo used the mansion’s lab to conduct his experiments on Cloud and Zack because it was conveniently close, but it seemed like the entire complex was a leftover from the initial phases of the SOLDIER development project. There’s no reason for it not containing heaps of outdated documents, forgotten archives… and frankensteinish emo ex-Turks.

27

I admit that was odd, but by the same token, why would Sephiroth steal his “mother’s” body only to cut it into pieces and throw them at the pursuing heroes?

Parts of Jenova’s body obviously have the ability to conduct her thoughts and even change their shape; even her cells can affect a person, hence the whole point of the Reunion.

Which would mean that Jenova’s body finally went on to merge with all the other Jenova cells in the bodies of the “Sephiroth Clones” (the “Reunion” that forms the final Jenova monster).

Sorry… I just can’t envision this. Cloud fights some version of “Jenova” almost every time “Sephiroth” shows up. You’re saying that Jenova would first disguise herself as Sephiroth and then change shape into a monster, then turn back into Sephiroth and disappear? There’s no visual cues towards that at all.
Here’s a better (and more decisive) question: Where did this “Jenova” come from? Remember, she was being stored in Shinra Tower. “Sephiroth” is the one who broke her out in the first place near the start of the game!

I guess I’m looking at the story more as a writer than as the average player, Cid. And in a well-written story, you give clues that explain what will happen later on

Yes and no. There are some stories which deliberately leave things vague in order to keep the viewer guessing - for example, the ending of FF Tactics or Vagrant Story, or the suitcase in Pulp Fiction (though that’s more of a MacGuffin). It makes the viewer work at figuring out what happened or even coming up with his own thesis on it.

28

Considering the autonomy in Jenova’s cells which were even capable of creating Kadaj and those others from scratch, there’s no reason to deny the possibility that once a part (the head) was taken outside, it couldn’t create pseudo-bodies by rapidly replicating it’s cells. Just something to throw around and cause a ruckus while the really important puppets did their job.

Hey, it worked for Lavos, so why not?

29

Good point. However, some kind of research was obviously taking place at the Nibelheim reactor; in fact, I suspect the monsters that were plaguing the Reactor (the reason given for Sephiroth, Cloud and Zack’s mission there) were accidental creations of these experiments.

…unless…

…The whole incident was PLANNED by Hojo: make Sephiroth go there, find Jenova, read the (altered?) research results, see what happened then. (After all, why did Shinra tell Sephiroth his mother was Jenova? Why not tell him the truth? I suspect Hojo was playing games with his own son from the start. Bastard.)

Sorry… I just can’t envision this. Cloud fights some version of “Jenova” almost every time “Sephiroth” shows up. You’re saying that Jenova would first disguise herself as Sephiroth and then change shape into a monster, then turn back into Sephiroth and disappear? There’s no visual cues towards that at all.
Here’s a better (and more decisive) question: Where did this “Jenova” come from? Remember, she was being stored in Shinra Tower. “Sephiroth” is the one who broke her out in the first place near the start of the game!

My belief is that:
-Sephiroth took control over the (mindless) Jenova body from the Northern Crater, using his mind control powers;
-Used its shape-changing abilities to turn it into a duplicate/extension of himself;
-Broke out of its container (it was the heroes who assumed that Sephiroth had broken it out of the tanks.)
-Used it to do most of his dirty work (kill President Shinra, kill Aeris, steal the Black Materia etc.) while Sephiroth finished “evolving”.
-Used pieces of itself to fight off the pursuing heroes (they GREW into the Jenova Bosses; then disappeared after being “killed” which means the cells went back into “Sephiroth” who then fled (OR, they might’ve been absorbed by Cloud, increasing Sephiroth’s control over him over time.)

Yes and no. There are some stories which deliberately leave things vague in order to keep the viewer guessing - for example, the ending of FF Tactics or Vagrant Story, or the suitcase in Pulp Fiction (though that’s more of a MacGuffin). It makes the viewer work at figuring out what happened or even coming up with his own thesis on it.

The problem is, Sephiroth turning out to have been “someone else” is a MAJOR plot point in the story, Cid; not giving away at least SOME clues about something like that would be poor writing. And again, why mention Jenova can shape-change and then do nothing with that information? And if “sephiroth” was a clone, then why not show it changing BACK to its true form (whoever he may have been) at the end?

30

I think Gast retreated to the Icicle Inn long before Sephiroth was born or Hojo’s experimentation began.

31

Also, as for what was going on at the reactor, isn’t it possible that Hojo was experimenting without Shinra’s knowledge? Hence Shinra sending an investigation team.

32

It would be coold to see things new, epecially elements taken before the game happened, like you could be Shinra and soldier before the game started, or perhaps see the absolute rise of shinra to power.

33

But Sephiroth knew Gast, or at least knew enough of him to consider Hojo to be inferior. He says something along the lines of Hojo being an incompetent trying to fill in his superior’s shoes.

34

However, some kind of research was obviously taking place at the Nibelheim reactor; in fact, I suspect the monsters that were plaguing the Reactor (the reason given for Sephiroth, Cloud and Zack’s mission there) were accidental creations of these experiments.

The research took place, but there’s no indication that they thought Jenova was anything but a weird sort of Ancient. The only person who definitively knew different were Gast and Hojo, who hadn’t been in the Shinra Mansion for quite a while and hence there’s no reason to suspect the documents are anything but outdated.

My belief is that:
-Sephiroth took control over the (mindless) Jenova body from the Northern Crater, using his mind control powers;
-Used its shape-changing abilities to turn it into a duplicate/extension of himself;
-Broke out of its container (it was the heroes who assumed that Sephiroth had broken it out of the tanks.)
-Used it to do most of his dirty work (kill President Shinra, kill Aeris, steal the Black Materia etc.) while Sephiroth finished “evolving”.
-Used pieces of itself to fight off the pursuing heroes (they GREW into the Jenova Bosses; then disappeared after being “killed” which means the cells went back into “Sephiroth” who then fled (OR, they might’ve been absorbed by Cloud, increasing Sephiroth’s control over him over time.)

I find that to be really far-fetched. There’s no indication anywhere in the game that that sort of thing happened. On the other hand, there are indications that support the clone theory - for one, they’re called Sephiroth clones; they’re obviously controlled directly by his mind; there are a seemingly endless parade of them.

The problem is, Sephiroth turning out to have been “someone else” is a MAJOR plot point in the story, Cid; not giving away at least SOME clues about something like that would be poor writing.

All of the examples I mentioned are also major plot points. And claiming that Sephiroth used “pieces of Jenova” to do his dirty work is yet completely understandable, huh?

And again, why mention Jenova can shape-change and then do nothing with that information?

It was used in various ways; to explain the four different forms that Cloud fights; to explain how she ingratiated herself to the Ancients; to explain why she still lives even after her head’s taken off.

And if “sephiroth” was a clone, then why not show it changing BACK to its true form (whoever he may have been) at the end?

Because that would be too obvious, natch. Why not show the “pieces of Jenova” turning from/into Sephiroth at any point in the game according to your idea?

35

But Sephiroth knew Gast, or at least knew enough of him to consider Hojo to be inferior. He says something along the lines of Hojo being an incompetent trying to fill in his superior’s shoes.

He knew of him… he didn’t necessarily know him. But its hard to say either way. FF7 definitely has one of the more confusing plots.

36

Also, I always assumed that the Sephiroth you chase through the game was only a projection of himself, not a ‘clone’.

37

I pray I can remember this quote so I can flash it in every single FFVII discussion involving Sephiroth that takes place. Thumbs up!:ark:

38

Well, Cid, at this point we’ll just have to admit that we’re seeing different things in the same material- very understandable given how unclear the plot of FFVII is. I still believe I’m right, but let’s wait until they remake the game (Or do a “The Life Story of Sephiroth” kinda thing) to finally settle on it. (Hey, it only took nearly a decade for Advent Children to come out and reveal the fate of the characters, eh? :hahaha; ) Pleasure arguing with you anyway. :cool:

Ninja Edit: Well, lookie here! It just ocurred to me to check out “Jenova” on Wikipedia and look what I found out:


While this cannot be trusted 100% (since it’s from a Wiki) I’m impressed by how well referenced it seems to be. Check it out and tell me what you think…

39

Interesting… they do seem to take your side on this. But the one main point we’re arguing (regarding who the “Sephiroths” are) is the one that has no references at all. I don’t know where they determined that info from.

40

Indeed. Darn, now I want to get a copy of that FF7 Ultimania book… if there’s a translation, of course. :stuck_out_tongue:

And I see you posted your opinion about the Sephiroth mystery in the article’s discussion page. Good, that’s what Wikipedia is for. Maybe we’ll get an answer, or a correction. :slight_smile:

But we’ve wandered off-topic. Returning to the FF7 remake:

The main question is: WHY hasn’t there been a remake yet, when so many people want it (and it would obviously sell like hotcakes?) The original answer, that they don’t make sequels to FF games, no longer applies.

My guess is, Square still wants to sell copies of the original game, which from what I hear, is still selling fairly well. Much easier than remaking the whole game, no? However, the game looks dated by now, and as the “Compilation of Final Fantasy VII” grows, more people are going to want to check the original, and are likely to be disappointed by the graphics- and confused by the story.

So yes, I do believe they will remake FF7, sooner or later. The new version will have modern graphics and, most likely, a better focus on the main characters. However, there probably will be lot of changes on the game itself- after all, they probably will not want to make an EXACT copy of the original, since that would render the first completely obsolete. For example, they might change the secret bosses and hidden materia- so that, if you really want to fight Ruby Weapon (for example) you’ll still have to buy the original. That’s what I would do if I were a Squeenix executive, anyway. :wink: