This one’s from RPGFan
While I seriously question the validity of the Dark Knight part of this story I’m left to wonder what exactly is Balthier’s role in all of this is?
Unless they have a voice for him (by the same actor, to boot), the Balthier Effect will have been spoiled.
I’m mostly seeing this as another psp title that I just don’t plan to get. Unless maybe I can start finding a cheap psp somewhere, I don’t plan to delve into that system. I have enough games that i need to find time to play without buying another system and more games. Though you’d wonder if the DS wouldn’t have been a better choice for a tactics game.
So ehm… did he find a time machine, an immortality potion or what? Isn’t there a several thousand-year gap between XII and FFT?
He obviously found a time-space machine. There may be a several thousand-year gap between XII and FFT, but at least it’s the same world. Cloud came in Ivalice and yet he didn’t even belong in the same dimension!
I don’t recall any mentions of there being a major time difference between FFT and FFXII.
Cloud came to Ivalive via an interdimensional teleporter that may have time-travelling capabilities, wheras Balthier’ll probably use the Strahl to fly to FFT’s Ivalice.
When does the game come out in Japan so someone can tell us?
One takes place 800 years after the other. See the Ivalice page on the FFCompendium for more info.
Not quite. If one looks at all the information objectively, one can see that the Ultimania, for once, is entirely correct. The only thing that contradicts the Ultimania in the whole “Ivalice” game series is the Magick Pot entry. …Or rather, the English Magick Pot entry.
Yes, it was discovered on GameFAQs on the FFT:TLW board that the English entry is actually a mistranslation. The Japanese Magick Pot entry says the same thing about Kiltia and the development of his religion, in a long paragraph. But then in the second paragraph it says “Several decades after this point, Saint Ajora founded a new religion (…)”. In Japanese it was very ambiguous what “this point” referred to. It could have meant several decades after Kiltia, but it could have equally meant several decades after FFXII’s time.
When the Ultimania Omega guide was released, it removed the ambiguity by stating that it’s indeed several decades after FFXII’s time. So, it’s official and there’s no contradiction on this point. Only the English translation was misleading. The timeline is FFXII > Ajora > FFT. If you think about it, it’s totally logical, because if Ajora had created a new religion right after Kiltia’s religion, Kiltia would never have had the time and audience to develop his stuff, Ajora would have taken all the potential fidels… And Kiltia’s priesthood would never have risen to ultimate power and then gave up their political power all in the span of a “few decades.”
A problem which remains, though, is that on the Ultimania timeline, the Ajora who is mentioned on the FFXII line is referred to as a female. The word “Saint” in English is neutral, but in Japanese it can be “male saint” or “female saint”, and in this case it is “female saint Ajora.” On the same page, the FFT timeline is given, and for some reason it’s written “male saint Ajora”… This can’t be a typo, because it’s written on the very same page right under the “female saint Ajora” stuff.
One theory to explain this apparent discrepancy is that there is a single Ajora who reincarnated herself in different bodies (after all, the Esper Ultima’s power is to “aid in reincarnation”, and we do see a reincarnation in FFT in Murond). The first Ajora would have been a female who lived several decades after FFXII and would have founded the Church of Faram to replace the Light of Kiltia. The second Ajora would habe been reincarnated in a male body 12 centuries before FFT and would have founded the Glabados Church to replace the Church of Faram (the Church of Fara is indeed mentioned in FFT’s Germonik Scriptures). Finally, the third Ajora would be reincarnated in a female’s body (Alma) during the events of the game. It could explain why Ajora says to Ramza “I have my body back” when she awakes in Alma’s body (she was in a male body previously and is now a female again).
Another theory is that the female and male Ajoras are simply the same being in the same body. There would have been only one Ajora, a female one. The confusion would have been created by the Glabados Church, which would have later in time taught to people that Ajora was a male. This would be due to cultural preferences, sexism, etc. After all, we do know that the Glabados Church lied a lot and on a lot of things. This theory doesn’t explain why Ajora says “I have my body back” during the final battle in FFT though.
Anyway, the official timeline is:
2000 years before FFXII -> Kiltia
706 OV -> FFXII
Several decades after 706 OV -> Female Ajora
?Some time in-between -> Male Ajora?
1200 years after female or male Ajora -> FFT
All good points! While someone will probably contradict you, I applaud you on bringing this info to light.
There’s still a problem though, which is that Balthier refers to the cache of Glabados at the end of XII. And if you have to tilt an ambiguous phrasing in favour of either side, it would be the official one (the game) instead of Ultimania which, as it’s not actually written by the same people who do the scripts, is very close to being fan speculation.
What I really want to know about is what Ultima (It seems XII decided to scrap Altima) meant by “the one who defeated me before” in reference to Ramza. I wonder if we’ll get some backstory on that.
Sorry, but our position on these things is that the English translation is as official as you can get. Especially in FF12, whose localization is quite frankly the most astoundingly excellent I’ve ever seen. No, I’m not going to take Ultimania’s word over the official English translation, sorry.
And note that NOWHERE in the Clan Primer, not in a single entry, is there ever any indication about stuff that happens after FF12. I don’t see why on earth you’d assume it is; the English translation is thus quite correct, as far as I can see. And inventing new people who happen to share the same name as others where they aren’t necessary isn’t what we want to do either.
If you think about it, it’s totally logical, because if Ajora had created a new religion right after Kiltia’s religion, Kiltia would never have had the time and audience to develop his stuff, Ajora would have taken all the potential fidels… And Kiltia’s priesthood would never have risen to ultimate power and then gave up their political power all in the span of a “few decades.”
That’s like saying that once Protestantism began, the Catholic Church had no choice but to go under. Ajora was a spinoff; it quite likely took centuries to really catch on (probably took some sort of scandal in the Kiltian church, too).
Yeah, the cache of Glabados stuff seems like a strange stuff. However, seeing how Balthier is apparently searching for it in FFT’s era (according to the recent news about FFT:TLW), it may be referring to the future. All we know is that Balthier goes “somewhere” at the end of FFXII, he has some sort of role in RW, and before or after RW he somehow makes his way to FFT:TLW’s era. In any case, this whole stuff remains a problem whether it’s FFXII > FFT or FFT > FFXII, since the Ivalice Alliance games aren’t released yet. We’ve got to wait and see what information they’ll give us.
Well, no one’s saying that the FFXII translation was crap, but some mistakes can happen. As I said above, the original Japanese entry was ambiguous, the English translators had to make a choice in their translation. They made the choice which happens to contradict the later Ultimania, but that’s just one point. The other point is that the Japanese entry referred to Ajora as a female saint, and yet in the English translation the sentence is worded so that there’s no way to tell Ajora’s sex… Generally when we can’t tell someone’s sex, we assume the person is male. My point is, even without considering the chronology of FFXII and FFT, the fact that there is a “female Ajora” and a “male Ajora” still remains. There’s no invention here, even if the English translation removed the “female” adjective. On this precise sentence, the English translation is definitely flawed compared to the original Japanese one.
As for Protestantism, that’s not really a good comparison. Protestantism began 1400 years after Jesus Christ, not “several years” after.
However, seeing how Balthier is apparently searching for it in FFT’s era (according to the recent news about FFT:TLW)
That makes no sense at all; the note is there one year after the end of FF12. Even if he does appear in a similar manner in FFT:TLW, you can’t just shrug off FF12’s ending. Unless you’d claim that he went to FFT’s era, searched for the hoard there, then went back and left a note saying that he was still searching for the hoard in FF12’s era. It’s way too weird.
The best I can make of his cameo is that it’s going to be a fanservice, just like Cloud, and not canon.
As for whether Ajora was male or female, frankly, I was never able to tell that in FFT either. FFT’s English translation had it as male, but that translation was crap. Ajora definitely looked like a female there, and Altma/Ultima, Ajora’s alterego, is certainly female. Perhaps the translators were just as confused as the rest of us on that point, which is why they deliberately left it generic. No contradiction there, as far as I can tell.
As for Protestantism, that’s not really a good comparison. Protestantism began 1400 years after Jesus Christ, not “several years” after.
Doesn’t really matter, though: the point is that it’s a spinoff, people would have different reasons for following the different ideals, and there’s no reason to think that the first would suddenly disappear just because there’s a spinoff.
I’m not claiming anything about this, unlike you. If we want to use the post-FFXII Balthier to back up any theory, we at least have to wait for the 2-3 Ivalice Alliance games to be released to see what is Balthier’s exact fate post-FFXII.
You’re right, there’s no contradiction, that’s what I said too: we have a male Ajora on the one hand, and a female Ajora on the other hand. The English FFT states that Ajora was the “Son” of God. Whether or not FFT’s English translation is correct or not, it won’t change the fact that both FFXII and the Ultimania mentions a female Ajora, and that the Ultimania also mentions a male Ajora. So, yes there’s 2 Ajoras, and yes it’s not a contradiction since plausible theories to explain this double sex are possible.
I don’t hold either the English FFT translation or the Japanese Ultimania to be definitive, though, the first because it’s awash with its own errors, and the second for a variety of my own reasons. So unfortunately the sources of those facts are flawed and hence I don’t consider them when discussing story details. I hope that doesn’t sound harsh or arrogant, but it’s the truth. For the moment, the only facts I have stem from the FF12 text, and the fact that the Japanese text mentioned a female Ajora doesn’t mean there were two of them, since the only place that really mentions a male Ajora is FFT, which I’ve already expressed doubts about.
And I’m not really “claiming” anything either - I’m simply dismissing a theory which I don’t feel has valid supporting evidence. The current theory I have up fits the available (i.e. acceptable) evidence more closely, but I don’t claim to say that that’s “truth” either, just that it fits the best.
Well, as you wish, it’s your site after all. I just want to make sure you’re aware of all the facts.
FFT is not the only place where there’s a mention of a male Ajora. The Ultimania mentions both a female Ajora on the FFXII timeline and a male Ajora on the FFT timeline which is right under the other on the same page. Your position is that the Ultimania could contradict information presented in the games, but do you go as far as saying that the Ultimania can contradict itself on a single page of info? Again, I don’t want to argue or anything, but all this stuff is quite huge, it’s kind of hard to just disregard it all.
The fact that Ultimania contradicts itself is, as far as I’m concerned, just another indication that it’s sloppy. If it really wanted to indicate that there were two Ajoras, being the exhaustive reference it touts itself as, it would certainly have gone into more detail on the subject.
And once again, Ultimania is not written by the game scenario writers, but by subsidiary department that deals with publicity and occasionally gets input from the development staff. The very fact that there’s a grey box between the two timelines shows that the writer did not sit down with the scenario designers to get everything clear, but rather was told two or three things and came up with that timeline based on his own interpretation.
And about the Male/Female Ajora, consider the sources:
FFT: The church’s story is in fact a load of made-up bullshit. They took the person called “Ajora” and elevated to sainthood by making up a bunch of stories about divine descent. Since the setting is clearly medieval and Glabados was obviously meant to mirror the Catholic Church, a male-centric mindset would be expected. And hey, we already changed the person’s origin and story, why not gender as well?
Regardless, Ultima was clearly female, and reincarnated into a female.
Ultimania: See above. Just like I came up with this interpretation, the writer came up with another. Difference being, I didn’t suddenly invent a new character.
Anywhere Else: Female Ajora.
I’m going to stop you there because I may have jumped the gun on this one. I have three reasons to believe that I got the facts wrong.
First, is the fact that I haven’t been able to confirm RPGFan’s story yet. The only site that seemed to have supported this claim was GameSpot. The second clue was the fact that all GS had was one picture of Balthier and it looked like it came from the FFXII bonus disk (i.e. concept art for FFXII) rather then anything more concrete. And third was the Dark Knight comment, as anyone with a vauge memory of the game could have forgotten about Gafgarion being in the original version. That same mistake could have been made about either Mustadio or his father.
I’m not declairing that this is total bunk, in fact, it is possible for this story to be true, but I do have my doubts. You may continue with your debate on Ajora’s gender.
No offense, but this is quite a biased statement. If you don’t count the Ultimania (which wouldn’t make a difference anyhow since it has both genders), you have only two sources, FFT and FFXII. So don’t say “anywhere else”, say “in FFXII”.
Truth lies in the Germonik Scriptures. Germonik recorded the true origin and story of Ajora. If the FFT Ajora were woman, it would have been apparent in the book. Yet nor Simon in his notes nor Ramza when he read the book said anything about Ajora’s gender having been changed by the Church.
Also, just as a side-note: the Catholic Church had no problem with Mary being a woman.