FFT Ques (spoilers)

I’ve been reading up on the FFT storyline in the compendium and I never got why St Ajora was the last boss…in the timeline, wasn’t he a good prophet? it says he was going to revive the zodiac braves…were they good, or evil? I’m inclined to believe they were evil because the ones ressurected were the ones you fought against…I always thought they were good warriors (my knowledge and understanding of FFT is very small). i also believe I’m wrong about that when saying that some of the zodiac stones allowed the lucavi to find host bodies…

Could anyone shed some light on that part of the game, involving St Ajora, the churches, lucavi and whatnot?

Go read the lengthier story page (Zodiac Brave Story). Ajora was actually a spy working against the empire at the time, and yes, the Zodiac Braves were demons, not “good warriors”. The church changed around the story.

I skimmed through some of that, but I do recall reading the part about the spy, earlier. I just thought you were implying that it was rumoured he was a spy.

Why did he wish to ressurect them? Was it just mainly political reasons like that? Or did he have a bigger agenda…? I apologize if the answers are there, but I just read the whole timeline and a lot of facts are getting jumbled around in my head.

I think he was just a generically bad guy. 8p I don’t think it goes into much detail about that. You can read the Germonik Scriptures in the Brave Story menu, that’s probably the most information you can get about it.

The zodiac stones was not for Lucavi to find hosts,from what i can get they are stones used to fight the demon Lucavi,however if the stones are used by evil people it will turn the weilder into a demon,but used by a good person it can perform miracles.

I think that the Lucavi were communicating through the stones to the people, who controlled the Ivalice leaders and forced them to do their bidding.

Now we are talking. This is my kind of FF.

St Ajora’s true history was buried under the tenfold corruption of the church (Think Catholic Empire during the Dark Ages). The Zodiac Stones were not good or evil. They were raw power. As can be seen in the scene when Malak has his scene with the stone, in comparison to, say what happens when Elmdor gets involved with a little Zodiac Stone.

Basically, as that the Church is already corrupt, Lucavi is using them and the power of the stones to attempt its own revival, because they don’t need too much more corrupting. The pure of heart can safely use the power of the stones, because they don’t let it get to their heads and go psycho.

Lucavi’s involvement with the stones is basically like a mosquito’s attraction to warmth. Mosquito’s are not intrinsicly tied to heat, but you can bet your bottom dollar that the warmer it is near you, the more skeeters will tend to notice you. So basically, Lucavi is thinking, “Damn those stones is mighty powerful, I can use their power.” But Lucavi is like some stereotypical Devil, and cannot force his will upon people. He can only possess them if they sell their soul to him, and then Lucavi uses them and the stone to become a heineous demon or two.

Why the stones though? Because Lucavi can’t break the barrier between reality and oblivion (or whereever Lucavi is trapped), only the stones can.

But what about Ajora? Well, Ajora got caught up in the whole Lucavi thing at death time. And whether Ajora was a good guy or a bad guy, a few centuries is long enough for the evil to corrupt anyones soul, and thus Ajora’s might became Lucavi’s.

The interesting thing about this game (and MANY other Final Fantasy games) is the very strong themes against organized, Western religion. This one is a more obvious one, but largely, since Final Fantasy games started coming out on playstation, there have been seriously harsh criticisms against the church imbedded in them.

Two of the more obvious examples are FF-10 and Tactics, in both of which, the church is a corrupt and obressive system of lies and power maintenance. Furthermore, in Tactics, if Ajora was a christlike figure, than isn’t it a harsh stab at it all to say that even a christ can become corrupt?

And in FF-7, too, the most Holy power in the game was not one that supported man, but one that obliterated all HUMAN life, leaving a pure and good world behind, full of life.

In FF-8, Squall’s holy symbol was not of any faith other than himself. Griever (or whatever it was called), was his own internal godhood and not some external force come to deliver him. The closest thing to divinity in FF-8 was Rhinoa’s angelic form, which was really just a manifestation of power in a good person, and not a celestial agent.

And though it is a bit of a stretch, think about the enemy in FF-9. An otherworldy force, attempting to absorb and convert the souls of all.

Though earlier FF games tend to have a very daoistic view of nature and balance and natural goodness, more recent games have stepped this up a notch to the point where the villain is no longer just some supreme darkness, but rather a dark mockery of the western church, or where the only true divinity is in the self (Zen and Shinto both agree to this) or will obliterate humans (try to convince a Southern Baptist of that one).

I realize that I have taken your topic and spun it, but I got kinda worked up about Tactics, and then got to thinking about the whole church = evil thing, and I ran with it.

Anyone have any thoughts about that theory? I personally love it half the time and think that its insulting to my heretical faith the other half.

Don’t forget that Christianity is more of a novelty than a religion in Japan. There aren’t very many Christians there, so they’re free to poke whatever fun they want at them. I do take umbrage at your comparison to Necron from FF9 to the church; that’s simply ridiculous. Necron was trying to destroy everything, not “convert” or “absorb” anything.

i thought st. Ajora was a girl.

i mean she did have boobs in all her forms. :moogle:

I’m relativly sure that Christianity is the major religion in Japan, and that it overtook Shintoisim sometime ago.

I’m relatively sure it hasn’t. Neither of us have any concrete information on it, though. 8p

Actually, there are only about one or two million Christians in Japan. That isn’t very much… only about 1% of the country’s total population. Shintoism and Buddhism are the most predominant, methinks.

Take a look at a Guide to Japan if you’re super curious.

I thought Lucavi were different demons, not just one.

And how exactly did Ajora get caught up in “lucavi” in death? See, it’s all of these missing pieces that I don’t understand, yet it occured to me yesterday that by playing/reading, Ajora is the most interesting part of the game to me, so I want to know. Apparently he was just a spy, a psuedo bad guy who got his premonitions from other people, but I want to know how he made that transition from human to god, and his involvement with the zodiac braves, and the thing that took control of him. When he’s Altima…like how did that happen? He’s listed as an alter-ego…does that mean Altima existed in Ajora all along, or did he get posessed too?

im pretty sure st. ajora is a girl. :moogle:

Alma is a girl (and the name by which I refer to one of my friends). If you are badass enough to possess an unwilling target, you are probably badass enough not care about whether or not you have boobs. Thats my thouhgt on that. But there is the basic argument about the name Ajora ending with an A, which is a classicly feminine ending in Latin. For whatever that is worth. But I still vote masculine on the Ajora gender issue.

As to the whole FF-9 absorbing souls thing. I was talking more about the Terran view of things than the Necron final boss. I admit it is a stretch, but I think that it is in at least some way an attack against the organized church. In fact, it is one of the slights against the church that I do take offense at.

Still, only my opinion, and certainly not set in stone. I just think that the FF series had started taking a rather anti-christian point of view.

For the record, if Christianity has taken a foothold in Japan, its a very stealthy one. Shinto and Buddhist shrines and temples are EVERYWHERE, and I have never even heard of a Japanese church. (They aboviously exist in at least some way though, just not as visibly as the ancestral ways of Japan).

It’s not so much anti-Christian as taking jabs at organized religion as a whole (from what I can gather, Shintoism and Buddhism doesn’t have an actual structure as such). I would highly doubt that any FF creator would come out and say “I don’t like organized religion because it subjugates the masses” like Michael Moore would talking about Bush. It’s just something that they can make a statement about in video games which meshes with the whole fantasy-conspiracy plot.

Fair enough point of view. Now that you mention it, it may not really be Christianity much, but organized religion as a whole (though I still believe it is, and I’m just admitting that an argument against my own can float, but not that I was to float with that argument. Not until my own argument sinks will I leave it).

After games like Final Fantasy X and X-2 I doubt they can say ANYTHING about appealing to the masses as a bad thing. Unless of course they feel really bad about what they did to us by releasing that horrid game (FFX2).

As for the topic of Ajora, church-conflict, and over-all goodness of FFT… Has anyone ever considered running a Final Fantasy Tactics D&D game?

I’ve been planning one and am near completion by the end of the week to run with some of my friends.
If you’ve wanted resource books for somthing like that, I suggest www.returnergames.com
They have horrible rules for actual gameplay so my suggestion is to use the awsome world books with current backgrounds on alot of the Final Fantasy worlds and running it via D&D 3.5 edition.