Faith...in what? (very angsty)

First of all, I guess this is sort of a selfish thread, since it’s about my current train of thought. Don’t be condescending to me though, please…most of you should understand what I’m saying, as long as I can get it put into words right. Also this post is probably going to be extremely long, but for once I’d actually appreciate a cunning dissection of my post, because I’m just not sure what to think anymore. Here goes.

I had an epiphany today, about my religion. Or maybe a more accurate term would be a ‘paradigm shift’. I dunno. I was more or less raised as a christian, though my parents were never forceful about it. They taught me about the bible, God’s word, and so forth. I was baptized as a baby, and I chose to be baptized again when I was ten, after I reached what I considered a pretty good understanding of the Bible on my own. My parents were pleased of course, but I didn’t do it for them, nor did they pressure me. I felt secure, felt understanding from the theology, and made the decision on my own.

Nor was I unequipped to make this decision. I was abnormally smart for my age (was reading 6th-grade levels when I was 3 years old, read my first Stephen King book, ‘The Gunslinger’, when I was 7 I think), was doing high-school level math in late elementary school. As such I’ve had what I consider a higher intellectual capacity than most kids for the majority of my young life. It’s been scientifically proven that I’m not a dumbass; I took an IQ test in college 3 years ago, and my range was between 140-152, which they tell me is not genius level, but well above average.

So, imagine how my time-hardened, faith-reliant, experience-shaped mind felt when I woke up this morning and discovered that my faith in God is dwindling, if not gone already. I guess it’s been going for a while now, and I could feel it. All this time, I’ve prayed and prayed, prayed for guidance, for deliverance. I prayed that if this feeling were the work of Lucifer, that God would help me ignore that influence and guide me back into His embrace. But the feeling only grew stronger. Today, when I woke up, I think the cord all but snapped, only a few final threads of doubt holding it together.

Look at our history, at the world today. How many have died in the name of God? There’s a quote somewhere (I forget who said it, it was someone important though): “The main doctrine of a fanatic’s creed are that his enemies are the enemies of God.”

That statement gives me chills, because that’s what the meat of every war has been over. I guess many people believe that the Iraqi insurgents, the taliban, and other groups must sit around, chuckling evilly, with a Seifer-like smirt on their faces, congratulating themselves on how evil they are. But common sense tells us that this isn’t the case. They are doing what they think is right, what they think God wants them to do. And what are we doing in return? What we think God wants us to do.

After reading and replying to Sinistral’s post on that christian museum, it sort of hit me how fucking fictional the Bible seems to be. I feel like a heretic saying it, almost hurts to say it, but shit… Noah’s Ark? The Garden of Eden? Fiction just seems to be the adequate word. It’s all gripping when you’re five years old, but read some fictional works by Koontz, King, Crichton, anyone else, and a smart person could base an entire religion on The Gunslinger. Ka, Ka-tet, and all that.

I don’t know what to feel, because I’m so mad. I’m mad because I don’t know what I’m supposed to believe. God is supposed to be all-powerful, but good and divine, yet he orders countless acts of inhumanity against people at random, followers of his word included. World Wars II’s persecution of the Jews come to mind, as do the Catholic Inquisition. ‘Acts of God’ include tsunamis, tornados, hurricanes, and so forth. Why do ‘acts of God’ apply only to things that kill an abnormally large amount of people, or at best are possessed of an enourmously large and uncontrollabe destructive force?

When these things happen, it is said that they happend because ‘the devil is at work’. If God is all powerful, then why does He let the devil hurt those who would come to Him? Who sets forth arbitrary laws and rules and punishes all who disobey (or even fail to believe) by roasting them alive in a slow fire for all eternity, (though it makes him really sad) and justifies all this purely on the basis of his power. How does this make him “good”? What then is his definition of “good”? Does his might alone make him right? How does this make him any different than Hitler or Attilla the Hun? By this definition, the cruelest human tyrant that ever lived was an angel by comparison, even the devil himself is “good”.

I guess I’m angry because when I look around at the human situation, really look at it, I feel cheated. People of this board, how many theoligical arguments have I gotten into with you? Many. Never have I gotten gotten personal, or overly rude (I really tried not to, anyway), but looking at it now, it feels like I’ve backing up a divine presence that does not exist. a lie, if you will. A work of fiction, written by people who may have meant well in believing a sense of right and wrong, good and evil, and so on, but in the end perpetrated a great lie. Ironically, the Bible foretells of a great lie.

So, if there is no God, no afterlife, perhaps no soul, then what is there? I’m all but certain that I’ll be in Iraq shortly, and if I die over there (or in the inevitable invasion of Iran, we all know it’s coming), I’d like to know that there’s more benefit to my life than the life insurance policy that will go to my wife and the son I’ll not be able to see born. But I don’t think there is, and this shakes me. In this age of horror and misunderstanding, it’s sad that the only true acts of honor and valor we see anymore come from fiction. Final Fantasy 8 gives me a better example of service, faith and willpower than does any scripture of the Bible. How sad is this?

Have you played Metal Gear Solid 3 (slight spoiler warning)? During the last fight, Snake’s mentor goes on in a monologue about the idealogy of a soldier and how they must interact with their country’s decision makers: “A soldier is a political tool, nothing more. That’s doubly true if he’s a career soldier. Right and wrong have no place in his mission. He has no enemies and no friends. Only the mission. You follow the orders you’re given. That’s what being a soldier is.”

I didn’t pay a whole lot of attention at the time she said it (too busy checking out her cleavage), but it all came back to me today. From that slight excerpt, you get the idea of what is ingrained into a soldier. My cousin, who’s already graduated from Army BT in Ft. Benning, tells me that’s pretty much what they hear about. But in the service of this country, service to God is intertwined with it by the higher-ups who would instill this fanatacism in you: “You cannot lose, you have God on your side”.

I say, bullshit. I don’t regret my enlisting in the USA. I will learn the one thing that no amount of reading can teach you: how to be a soldier, a killing machine. How better to protect your family from the sickos parading around the world today, many of them acting under orders from God?

Sorry, angst is not my department.

'Kay.

Don’t have faith in the bible, it’s mythology, it’s the religious interpretation of the history of a people. It IS fiction, essentially.

As a christian, your faith should come entirely from Jesus Christ and the fact that his teachings (which are so incorporated into our modern sense of morals that we don’t notice this) were so revolutionary for his time. They modernized our way of thinking and look how far it’s taken us. We’re not perfect, but on the other hand, we’re also not Jihad.

The majority of people aren’t Christian, but of the ones who are, I’ve seen everything from child molesters to deluded hypocrits. The one thing I haven’t seen, though, is genuine violence.

The bible was a book, Jesus was the real deal.

You have to choose your own beliefs and reasons for doing what you do. I don’t know - just do what you feel is right. No matter how hard you look, you’re not gonna find some kind of schema that explains everything. You just come up with your beliefs, no matter how irrational.

Well said, Hades… (Hah. The irony. A guy named Hades giving a small lesson on Jesus and the Bible :P)

Yes, that does mean that there is no “meaning” in life, at least in the way you’re using the notion: that there’s no overarching purpose for your existence set in stone by an invisible omnipotent being. But, so what? This doesn’t make one any less alive. If the process of thought consists solely of chemical reactions within the brain, and has no divinely inspired basis, so what? How does that annul the content of what you’ve written here and deliberated over? It doesn’t. Why should you have to deny the laws of nature, which can be observed and recorded, in order to see that?

Has your desire to protect your family been diminished by these things that you’ve written here? Did you instantly give up on all will to live? Did you stop thinking altogether? No, your thoughts and aspirations are still there. Consequently, moral principles and attachments to other people are not dependent upon religious faith. And if that’s the case, why is it important that they be caused by supernatural forces? What should it matter that one’s life has no grand cosmic significance, when one can still have a colossal effect, on a fundamental level, on the lives of even one or two individuals?

By rejecting religious faith, you’ve lost the theological justification for your having thoughts, dreams, aspirations, and principles. But despite that, you haven’t lost those things themselves. Why not? Because you were brought up to have them, and to understand in some way that you are part of a greater whole; because you want to have them; because such is your personality; because such traits are fairly common among humankind, as widespread as reflexes (hence why murderers and rapists are not quite the norm in human society). And if you still have all those things, then what exactly has changed? All you’ve really “lost” is the promise of immortality. But if so, should that not compel you to stand by your principles and aspirations <i>even more</i>, and to improve the world as much as possible?

(By the way, if you find our responses to your thoughts unsatisfactory, you may wish to read a novel called “The Brothers Karamazov,” by Fyodor Dostoevsky. Though this book is extremely long, this particular issue is one of its foremost themes, and is examined from the perspectives of both believers and non-believers. You may, at least, find some consolation in the fact that the same questions have been on the minds of other people in history.)

Hey Aldred your IQ is about the same as mine! Anyway I do feel the way you do. It seems that my faith in God is dwindling everyday. I’m not sure if what the bible says is true or not. I haven’t read but very small parts of it and most of it I find unbelievable. And you were saying how entire religions could be based on The Gunslinger. That made me think. An entire religion could be based of off Tolkien’s books even. If you’ve ever read the Silmarillion you could base a religion on it. I dont feel angry but I do feel kinda sad really. Charles Manson thought that he was the son of God so what if Jesus was just a crazy person too?

I’m going to go about responding to you in a different way, and actually dissecting some of your statements and responding to them from a Christian perspective, or at least my Christian perspective. I’m not as articulate as I’d like to be, but I’ll do my best, although you can ask me for clarification on some of my points. Also, I don’t claim to have all the answers, but no mortal man does.

Look at our history, at the world today. How many have died in the name of God? There’s a quote somewhere (I forget who said it, it was someone important though): “The main doctrine of a fanatic’s creed are that his enemies are the enemies of God.”

I always saw this as a poor example against Christianity, for the most part. People always look to justify their evil ambitions, and what better way to do that than to use God or their religion? Be careful not to fall into the trap of blaming the religion itself for sinners’ actions. Christianity is not about war, it’s about love. Don’t let the misguided actions of other people sully Jesus’ message.

That statement gives me chills, because that’s what the meat of every war has been over. I guess many people believe that the Iraqi insurgents, the taliban, and other groups must sit around, chuckling evilly, with a Seifer-like smirt on their faces, congratulating themselves on how evil they are. But common sense tells us that this isn’t the case. They are doing what they think is right, what they think God wants them to do. And what are we doing in return? What we think God wants us to do.

Well, not every war has been about religion, but I understand the point you’re making. I can’t really speak for any other religion, because I honestly do not know much about them, but again, I must emphasize that the people who are declaring war in the name of Christ are not following Christ’s message. The Crusades are the best example of this. The Crusaders said they were doing it in the name of religion, but it was a war mostly for selfish purposes, and Christianity was merely used as justification. There’s a difference between a “cultural Christian” (somebody who claims to be Christian, but does not follow Christian beliefs) and an “actual Christian” (somebody who does follow Christian beliefs). Warmongers in the name of Christianity are either the former, or are misconstrued in some way.

After reading and replying to Sinistral’s post on that christian museum, it sort of hit me how fucking fictional the Bible seems to be. I feel like a heretic saying it, almost hurts to say it, but shit… Noah’s Ark? The Garden of Eden? Fiction just seems to be the adequate word. It’s all gripping when you’re five years old, but read some fictional works by Koontz, King, Crichton, anyone else, and a smart person could base an entire religion on The Gunslinger. Ka, Ka-tet, and all that.

Well, you need to differentiate between the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament is basically the recorded history of the Jews up to the time of the Christ, but the New Testament is where the bulk of Christianity is found. Now, look at Christianity, and look at what it means to be Christian. Is it absolutely essential to believe in Adam and Eve? If you don’t believe that Noah’s Ark is exactly 300 x 50 x 30 cubits, are you going to hell? NO! That’s missing the forest for the trees. You can look at the stories from Genesis as symbolic, or literal, or whatever, in the grand scheme of things, it’s not particularly important. At least that’s my thoughts on the situation. I don’t put much emphasis on trying to scientifically validate stories like that, because they’re not the focus of the religion, despite the fact that some people try to make them be.

I don’t know what to feel, because I’m so mad. I’m mad because I don’t know what I’m supposed to believe. God is supposed to be all-powerful, but good and divine, yet he orders countless acts of inhumanity against people at random, followers of his word included. World Wars II’s persecution of the Jews come to mind, as do the Catholic Inquisition. ‘Acts of God’ include tsunamis, tornados, hurricanes, and so forth. Why do ‘acts of God’ apply only to things that kill an abnormally large amount of people, or at best are possessed of an enourmously large and uncontrollabe destructive force?

One thing you must be careful of is to not put words in God’s mouth, and not blame Him for everything. God has given mankind free will. He did not make it so that we are incapable of sin, so, well, shit happens (What good would existing be if we were never given the ability to choose for ourselves? How would that be different from slavery?). From a Christian perspective, take a look at our mortal life. If there is an afterlife, and afterlife is an eternity, what is our lifetime but a single moment in time? Surely God has more planned for us than our existance on Earth. I believe our time on Earth is a time for us to exercise the free will he has given us, it is not a time for him to make everybody’s life perfect… if we follow his way, we’ll have the rest of our existance for that.

Another thing to keep in mind is the famous “bear trap” analogy. Most people would agree that the difference in… intelligence (for lack of better word) between an omniscient God and man is much larger than the difference between the intelligence of a man and a bear. Now, if a bear is caught in a trap, and a man wishes to help the bear, it’s going to hurt the bear while you’re working its paw out of the trap. The bear does not know this, all it knows is that you’re causing it pain for the time being. The point is, we do not, and we CANNOT know exactly why God does the things He does. It may all make perfect sense to him, but we are incapable of understanding for ourselves… at least while we’re still alive. Basically, it’s unwise to try to use human justifications for God’s actions, when the picture is so much bigger than we can comprehend. Not that I would automatically think that whenever there’s a natural disaster, it’s God punishing somebody or anything.

When these things happen, it is said that they happend because ‘the devil is at work’. If God is all powerful, then why does He let the devil hurt those who would come to Him? Who sets forth arbitrary laws and rules and punishes all who disobey (or even fail to believe) by roasting them alive in a slow fire for all eternity, (though it makes him really sad) and justifies all this purely on the basis of his power. How does this make him “good”? What then is his definition of “good”? Does his might alone make him right? How does this make him any different than Hitler or Attilla the Hun? By this definition, the cruelest human tyrant that ever lived was an angel by comparison, even the devil himself is “good”.

As I said, God sees things from a much bigger perspective than us. It would be impossible for us, as imperfect beings, to understand everything he does. However, think about it this way (again, from a Christian perspective). God created you. God created everything. He did not create you in the same way your parents created you, He created the existence of EVERYTHING. We owe EVERYTHING to Him. And more often than not, we reject His gift.

With that said, Hell is not really a torture chamber of fire, so to speak. The reality of Hell is much worse. Hell is the absolute absence of God’s presence for all eternity. Bam, He’s gone forever. And forever, the poor souls there are lost, and hopeless without Him. Now, remember I said earlier that God gave us the gift of free choice. Now, I’m not Catholic, so I don’t believe that good deeds get you into heaven. I believe accepting God’s gift of salvation is what gets you in, and otherwise, you go to Hell. If Hell is the absence of God for all eternity, then it is exactly what the people who go there have been clamoring for throughout their lives. God is a very just God, and it would be unjust for Hell not to exist.

I didn’t pay a whole lot of attention at the time she said it (too busy checking out her cleavage), but it all came back to me today. From that slight excerpt, you get the idea of what is ingrained into a soldier. My cousin, who’s already graduated from Army BT in Ft. Benning, tells me that’s pretty much what they hear about. But in the service of this country, service to God is intertwined with it by the higher-ups who would instill this fanatacism in you: “You cannot lose, you have God on your side”.

Well, this isn’t what your higher-ups are referring to, but I would agree with their statement. First of all, what does it mean to lose? As I said, our life here is such a small part of our overall existence. If you “have God on your side”, surely you might get shot and die, but through faith in him, you will find eternal peace after the fact. Again, said from a Christian perspective.

It’s never God that people really want. They want their current lives of emotion to be extended forever. I think religion was originally a way to understand one’s inner self–one’s passions, one’s thoughts–in relation to the world. It gradually misunderstood itself and became dogmatic, but the lessons one learns from the inward-facing part of religion are still very valuable! They <i>are</i> graspings at something higher; just not quite as one understands it at the time. Now, shed the old husk of religion, and recognize that the infathomably great presence you sought to understand is entirely within you.

Just a side note about Hell. There tends to be three main divisions within Christianity regarding what exactly Hell is. There are of course the Fire and Brimstone believers; we all know that picture of Hell. Then there is this “abscence of God” belief that Hiryuu spoke of; from my understanding, this is very much like the Jewish belief. Then there’s the belief that holds that when we die, those saved go to Heaven, and those not save no longer exist. Rather than be tortured via fire or absence, they just do not exist any more. I tend to think of it as the absence of God belief but with the clarification that the absence is due to nonexistence of the soul rather than being set aside in some sort of Purgatory-esque place.

And then they will see reason to join their military to protect themselves from you. Good going. =)

:kissy:

In my opinion, you either accept God is equally beneficent as he is malicious, or you accept that Satan is just as powerful as God is. Otherwise, how could an all-beneficent God create a permanent Hell? Hell could exist, but if God really does love us all, Hell can only be temporary - a way for God to teach people the right way.

And I think X-wing summarized my view of religion.

No offense, but when you understand the world well enough from a scientific point of view, these statements are absolutely laughable. Not because science empirically proves the existance of God, but because it takes away all doubt that there isn’t one, at least for me.

I don’t think there are enough people who step back and ask themselves what exactly life and the universe are, and if it’s causes and mechanics are any more likely to be coincidence than anything in the bible is likely to be true. Or if their sentience is merely a chemical illusion caused by electricity jumping around in the brain.

What eminent scientist did you consult to reach that delightfully inductive conclusion?

It’s not that Satan is as powerful as god, it’s that it’s easier to manipulate someone by exploiting their carnal desires than it is to exploit someone’s spiritual needs.

God and Satan are diametrically opposed, and Satan has certain advantages over our FLAWED bodies, I think.

X-Wing: Any scientist who has contributed to modern science.

… Albert Einstein, for instance?

Well, I should clarify that if you believe in permanent hell, then you either have to believe that God is both a savior and a bastard, or that Satan is equally powerful. Because if God is all-beneficent, and all-powerful, yet Hell is permanent… you see my point. And even if Satan manipulates people’s carnal desires, there can be equal power in that as there is ministering to people’s spiritual needs. Its the basic duology thats existed in Western intellectual thought since the Greeks - nature versus spirituality, emotions versus reason, etc. The idea is that both carnal desires and spirtual desires are equally powerful and equally necessary.

Another possibility is that God uses Hell to evolve people, to teach them, and that Hell is not permanent.

Welcome to the Darkside, Luke. :stuck_out_tongue:

Seriously…you do whatever you think you’re comfy with. So long as you don’t go shooting up fast food places, or something.

Not to mention the Crusades and the endless amount of peolpe killing other people because God told them to.