Everything isn't f***ed

Alright, I know that alot of people out there have this “the US is going to Hell in a firey struggle with reality” or the “lost all faith in humanity” thought about the election, but I’m asking if poeple can put aside their rage and immaturity to talk honestly about what this REALLY means in terms of the state of the nation.

I personally have a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. I feel as though many of the important values that I hold, and believed to be basic American values have been cast aside for short term financial gain and an artifacted sense of safety. It feels like my beliefs in the basic freedoms of man have been set on the altar to a dark god of wealth and power. I feel disenfranchised and alone. Its as though my existance is marginalized by the fact that I am not in the majority

Life, Liberty, and the Pursiut of Happiness (I’ll even ceed that the word Happiness should read Property). These are basic Inalienable rights according to our Constitution, yet somehow, they are only applicable to the majority.

Life is reserved for those born in this nation, and is forced upon all in the womb, even when some lives are better not lived. Lives that never make it to the womb don’t count of course, unless we are trying to use those lives that never were given a chance to give new hope to the living. Where is the inalienable right to live at a fertility clinic that literally throws away millions of unborn children? Where is the right to live in a nation that writes with a different alphabet? How can we force the right to life on some but refuse that same right on the grounds of the sanctity of life?

Liberty is of course the liberty to follow the majority. What about the freedom to be married? Well the ruling on that is that as long as you are marrying someone of the opposite gender. How can we as a nation support an argument that creates a new category of second class citizens?

Neither of these matter as long as we are safe and given our tax rebates. I am still reeling from what this tells me about my own country’s ideals. I thought we stood for something more than that. I thought that our countless “interventions on behalf of freedom and democracy” might have at least meant something despite thier horribly misguided courses. I thought that our incessant belligerism was based on a grain of foolish idealism.

This election has been a sad event for me. I do not doubt that Bush won, the evidence is so strongly in his favor that it would take a truly unbelieveable course of events to change the currently foreseen outcome. What I wonder is how I can live in a nation of people that did this. I think about it and statistically (both locally and nationally) more than half the other people around me want Bush in office. What is it that these poeple agree with Bush so strongly about? Is it his family values? If so, does that make me immoral for believing what I do? Do they agree with his war on terror? Does that make me a traitor? Is it their tax refunds? If they aren’t greedy, then what am I?

How can I reconcile my nations opinions to my own? I have become an outcast by a margin of less than 5%. How does that sort of thing happen? How can I be that diametrically opposed to over half of my own nation? Please, someone who is happy about Bush (if there is anyone or someone who understands Bush supporters as more than just uneducated or ignorant) please help me reconcile myself to this nation and what it means.

It will take a hell of a lot more than a corrupt/stupid/violent/delustional Rebulican president to ruin the world, that I can promise everyone. Our nation survived Reagan and we can survive Bush. That is not what I am concerned about. Everything isn’t fucked. Only I am, and the rest of my half of the nation.

I find it really funny that with all the talk of people here denouncing the Right for not being able to see past the ends of their own noses, there are so many MANY people here who can’t even begin to fathom why people would vote for Bush - let alone why more than half the country would. In other words, people spend so much time amongst others who agree with them that they have no idea there even IS another side of the story. I’m beginning to see that both sides of the coin here are guilty of this.

Maybe some of you should actually go out there and ask, sincerely, why people thought Bush was a good idea. Maybe you’ll see something you missed.

I’ve listened to both sides of the argument, and I disagree with Neoconservatives on many accounts. It’s mostly their idelogy. The neoconservatives want us to be a world empire and Iraq is one such example because when they say Iraq was a threat to us, well, frankly that’s bullshit. I won’t go into the facts but the neoconservative idealogy has gotten a thousand Americans and a hundred thousand Iraqi civilians killed, has given terrorist groups an excuse to gain support, has given us a worse debt than we already have, and has made us enemies in every corner of the world. Most of all, I oppose neoconservative idealogy because while the Neconservative politicians are boasting about how justified the war is, hundreds of lower and middle class Americans are being used as cannon fodder for nothing but said idealogy. It’s my opinion at least that nobody should be forced to fight a war stemmed from nothing but politicians and their views.

You forget that not everyone who voted for Bush is a neoconservative. That’s exactly my point, in fact.

Um, I have an uncle who voted for Bush, and the reasons he gave were: Everything bad thats happened in the last decade is all Clinton’s fault. The economy is doing great right now. Iraq attacked us, and the liberal media is hiding it from the people.

Your uncle is a Grade-A Moron

I agree whole heartedly, but, um… 42% of Americans do believe Iraq was behind 9/11

Edit: My % was wrong, posted part of survey.

NEW YORK (September 10, 2004) – The latest Newsweek poll, released this week, revealed that 42% of Americans continue to believe that Saddam Hussein’s regime was “directly involved” in the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the United States, despite all the evidence to the contrary. That’s nearly as many as the 44% who disagree.

42% of Americans are dildos…

mais j’me base sur rien du tout pour dire ca… :no2:

Just edited previous post, I misremembered the exact percent.

Well said, both sides have trouble with seeing the other side as made up totally of the stereotyped most extreme party members.

Conservatives are not totally out to lunch, and liberals who preach from a platform of tolerance and understanding need to stop viciously bashing conservatives. Off topic, but I was disgusted to see someone in my college paper the other day ranting on and on about how vile Republicans were for not embracing the Democratic notion of tolerance. -_-

Money is always a big issue, republicans are notorious for less spending and taxation. This may not seem like that big of a deal, but that’s because most of us are high school or college students, this doesn’t really affect us. Rest assured that this is a big deal, and people who want lower taxes are not greedy misers.

Moral values should be important for anyone alive, regardless of politics. Your moral values and how you act on them defines (in my eyes) whether or not you are a good person. I don’t agree with the conservative interpretation of moral values, but this is why a LOT of people vote Republican.

There is a massive amount of propaganda out there, and it’s VERY difficult to seperate fact from fiction and not just accept your parties propaganda no matter which side of the fence you’re on. Also keep in mind that the Republicans dominate the radio and control Fox news.

And don’t ask hardcore partisans why they voted for either side, their answer will more likely be a rationalization than anything else.

no the reason we dont let gays get married is cuz the bible prohibits homosexuality and our entire country was founded on protestantism and therefore homosexuality was prohibited, now whether this mandates a law be made is not for me to decided, but if we have strayed so far from the roots that this country was founded on we are bound for disaster…the last time a nation made itself a “christendom” we all know what happend…it went down hardcore… so i say this as a warning…we as a coountry cannot continue to use God as our means of excuse while we have homosexuality, sexual immorality, lyings, cheating stealing everyday people.

I’d love to show this “Bush isn’t so bad” thread to one of the hundreds of thousands of people who’ve lost a loved one because of his war. You know, just to see their reaction.

Losing an election does not mean you can resign and give up. Winning an election doesn’t mean you can relax. Both means you have to fight on.

So everyone who voted against gay marriage were conservative christians and basically claimed “cuz the bible said so”?

Hades, people have died in pointless wars before and they will continue to do so. Hundreds of thousands have died in Sudan, partly because the all-sacred United Nations can’t get their act together to help them.

I am most certainly not trying to diminish the importance of anyone’s death, but it’s not literally the end of the world as some here seem to be saying.

no im claiming that, thats why we havent legalized it yet. and only half the people who voted for bush voted cuz he is god fearing or a christian or whatever…which i think is crap

I guess only some here are empathetic enough to treat these issues with the seriousness they deserve.

The difference between America and Sudan is this:

Sudan has been in civil war for half a century, and by the way, you’re gonna have to go a little higher than “hundreds of thousands” for a deathcount. Try 2.5 million in the past 20 years.

America on the other hand, had a choice: Support or defeat a mass murderer who everyone knew was a mass murderer. They chose to support him. It’s not so much the murderer himself as the fact that Americans, the (self-proclaimed) highest society in the world, can completely ingore all of the crimes he has comitted and make him the most powerful man on the planet, especially when given the option not to, with no retribution.

Apparently America is still pretty fucking unconscious even after their brutal 2001 wake-up call.

I’m sorry, but when my own country starts these pointless wars that kill thousands on the basis of lies, while claiming to spread “freedom,” it’s a fucking important issue to me. Yeah, it’s not the end of the world for me (although it makes me a hell of a lot less safe), but it’s the end of the world for everyone who died for no reason in a war that was fought in my name with my tax money.

The Vietnam War was just as pointless, probably more so (due to the greater American involvement) than Iraq. And people who lost loved ones didn’t always try to damn the government like you seem to think they did (and do). Sure, a lot did, but not all.

My friend’s brother-in-law is serving in Iraq. His family whole-heartedly supports the war. If he were to be killed in combat, I don’t think that they would instantly say that they hate Bush and conservatism and whatnot. Some people and their families are just proud to fight for their country, regardless of the reason. Others aren’t. You can’t just make sweeping generalizations about that.

And I agree with Cidolfas on most counts. I don’t think he’s saying that the Iraq war is justified or not important (even though people seem to be putting words in his mouth), he’s just pointing out that shit like that has happened throughout all of history, and will continue to happen throughout all of history, which (unfortunately) is true. It’s human nature.

Hades didn’t say “all Americans who lost loved ones,” he said “people.” The overwhelming majority of people who have suffered from this war are not Americans.

What was the point of that observation, if not to diminish the importance of the war? Hades’ point was that people shouldn’t have voted for Bush on the grounds that he started a pointless war. Cid’s response to that was, essentially, “Well, pointless wars happen all the time, so it’s not that big a deal.”