I don’t know how I feel about the argument that, even if things would be better another way, we should just leave them the way they are, make no attempt to fix/change it, and accept things as they are. That kind of seems like it’s why the world is such a shithole.
I really just don’t feel this line of thinking is particularly constructive.
Please note I’m talking about bothering people who DON’T want our criticism, not that constructive criticism should never be offered. Seriously guys, do you EVER put yourself in these people’s shoes? Maybe it’s a kid writing it. Or someone with dyslexia. Or someone who just likes writing that way, or just can’t help it (not everyone has the talent to be a good writer.) Should THAT keep them from writing fanfiction? Hell no! Again, if they’re having fun, let them! ESPECIALLY if the stuff they write does have its fans, as twisted as we may find them. Sorry, but to me the idea that because something is posted in the Net where everyone can see it MUST comply with some people’s ideas of writing is just wrong. That would be like saying that there could not be comedy on TV, only dramas. I hate cartoons like South Park, but it has its fans. Should it be canceled just because many of us find it unbearable? No. Art is a matter of personal taste. Give advice only where it’s wanted.
I think the point is that, if something is placed in a public forum designed for discussion, it’s somewhat to be presumed that criticism is at least accepted unless the author specifically states otherwise.
No-one is arguing that all writing on the internet has to comply with our desires, only that there isn’t really anything wrong or cruel in politely expressing one’s opinion of the writing. I don’t even think that all published, professional writing must (or even should) conform to my tastes, however, that does not mean I don’t believe I may express that I dislike it.
It certainly shouldn’t be canceled because of that, but you should be allowed to state that you hate it.
I’m not even sure why we’re discussing the ethics of criticizing or not criticizing, considering the writer of the original piece said:
Thus, what I (among others) posted were perfectly within bounds. I’m not out to hurt GSG’s feelings, and I don’t think anyone else in the thread was. We offered advice because it was asked for. I believe GSG is earnest in his desire to write, and so I would be a bit of an ass if I weren’t to give him the best advice I had to offer.
I’m just going to answer why anybody would read anything with rape in the title. I certainly wouldn’t, unless the summary gives me good reason to, for example if it seems that the story will handle the matter seriously. There are a lot of reasons to keep reading, for some people, even if they realize that it’s a horrible story either by subject or writing.
I go for reason 2 when I actively seek out badly written fanfiction (which I probably do more often than I should). I look for really stupid crap, not horrble crap, such as the Naruto/Warcraft story I mentioned above, or another Warcraft story where one paladin singlehandedly invades a fortified keep and nobody notices this because he insta-kills all the guards and other people there by fatally stabbing them in the kidneys before they can scream. That was just one of the problems with that one.
In the case of the rape story I mentioned, the people who alerted Avril Lavigne’s lawyers very possibly read it through to be sure what they were talking about.
I find your arguments that we should just let things be, very flawed. True, there is no truly right or wrong in writing when it gets down to it. However, when somebody does something, somebody else reacts. Action and reaction and all that. At the core, it’s the same thing as instructing somebody on how to do their job, or perhaps more illustrative in this case, reacting to something a politician said and writing a letter to the newspapers to debate it. Reactions are good. If somebody doesn’t want reactions, well, the only way to avoid that is to not do anything at all, in this case not show their writing to people.
Let me put it this way. I like to think that I’m a decent writer these days, but the stuff I used to write when I first got here was BAD. I would have benefited a lot from more constructive criticism than I got, but I dunno if we were all still too young to dare being honest, or if I gave the impression that I couldn’t handle people being honest (u’re all being meen!), but at that point I didn’t ask anybody to correct my grammar before I posted (“Well, you was not really dead.” Christ on a cracker!), and there’s stuff I remember that should have been advised taken out. Which made me look like a moron. The only reason I haven’t asked to have stuff like “Hanging around” taken down from here, and still keep it on my ff.net account, is because I know I started out a happy amateur and there’s a process to becoming good. A process that is helped by getting constructive criticism (even if I didn’t ask for it then) as well as honest praise. Sorc spoke well about this kind of thing in 2003. It’s still a sticky, after all.
By the way, even if the subject matter is gruesome, that doesn’t mean it should be out of bounds for writers or readers. For instance, Gaspar Noé’s movie Irreversible may have been wordofmouthed as MonicaBellucciSexlulz, but it didn’t take its subject lightly and was far removed from the lulz.
edit: Also, Lolita, Tod in Venedig etc.
Thank you, Weiila.
The fact is, once a story’s online, it’s fair game. The writer has to realize they are no longer just sharing this with family and friends (if they even have any of the latter); anyone from anywhere can read it. And if they don’t like something, they have every right to let their opinions be known. Granted, a lot of people don’t put any thought into what they say (this stroy suxx0rs LOL!), but that does not excuse the writer from ignoring constructive criticism.
Now, can we have ONE THREAD in this fucking forum that doesn’t degenerate into a completely irrelevant topic?
Now where’s the fun in THAT? 
I don’t mind the arguments, but we really should start separate threads to avoid massive derailments.
And derail the derails till we have to post in the original thread.
I’d like to offer a counterpoint, since everyone here seems to be agreeing with Galloway that this is a “derailment.”
If you look at the first post in the last post, you can see a big gap between what the topic originally was and what the topic is. This is only natural in most interesting threads; it means that we’re engaged in the discussion. If you look at the first post then read each post in order, you will find that the conversation flows naturally and logically. We’re not being derailed; we just didn’t know where the train was going. This isn’t like the Sabin thread.
If something gets derailed, the original topic wasn’t as good as the new one. It’s kind of like highlander, take one topics head and the posts along with it.
That doesn’t necessarily follow. I would have never posted if I wasn’t interested in giving you some advice.
I guess your right, I didn’t see the post right before my last one.
You could say we followed the train and didn’t stop it like Sabin (->:hahaha;). There has been a slight derail from ‘how d’you like my story -criticism on it?’ to general criticism and writer/audience stuff, but I doubt most people here consider a derail bad by definition, especially if it’s related to the main topic.